Page 389 of 658 FirstFirst ... 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 ... LastLast
Results 9,701 to 9,725 of 16431

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #9701
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    closer
    Posts
    5,670
    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    somewhere buried with myth under a Berlin Brandenburg runway?
    We exported it to China the 90s. And the people who advocated it here at home went to Switzerland to get better paying Jobs.
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  2. #9702
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,531
    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    France and Germany were also at the same time supplying arms in much greater quantities to Russia. The problem with Ostpolitik:

    - Germany advocates change through trade. However, the policy of Ostpolitik or transforming authoritarian countries through trade can now be deemed a failure

    - Germany ignored Nato warnings about overreliance on Russian gas

    - Germany rejected nuclear power and now has few alternatives to Russian gas, although that is now changing

    -Germany has an ongoing dispute with the United States over withholding trade with Russia. For +fifty years European business has gone the opposite direction as America

    - “For thirty years, Germans lectured Ukrainians about fascism,” ... “When fascism actually arrived, Germans funded it, and Ukrainians died fighting it”

    - German politicians admit they messed up. German president Frank-Walter Steinmeier admits he misread Russia’s intentions as he pursued the construction of a new undersea gas pipeline. “My adherence to Nord Stream 2 was clearly a mistake”

    - The West should not trade with enemies of democracy. Germany is funding Russia's war of aggression and genocide on Ukraine
    uh, that was my point. Thales supplied sights for Russian tanks, Germany supplied stuff, etc.


    the Slovene tanks are upgraded t-55, not sure how much worse or better they are than leopard 1

  3. #9703
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,538
    Yeah, any accounting is fraught because simply looking at one side of the ledger fails to present a balanced picture. If European aid only offsets the destruction levied by Russia and does not lead to a swift Russian defeat then the war in Ukraine can continue for decades. There's no shortage on either side of young lives that can be destroyed by half measures.
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 09-20-2022 at 01:02 PM.

  4. #9704
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    closer
    Posts
    5,670
    I have no idea either it was just a point to show that some people actually do something.

    There is a a not so small number of us on the left and right who actually care more about cheap gas than about dieing ukrainians. Some people on the left still have a sweet spot for Russia in their hearts and some on the right have been bought or admire the Tiger slaying horse riding Diktator who should come here and Show those liberals how it's done. A truly Bizarre menagerie.

    For what it's worth: I've never voted for Merkel and her 16 years of standstill once.
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  5. #9705
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,531
    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Yeah, any accounting is fraught because simply looking at one side of the ledger fails to present a balanced picture. If European aid only offsets the destruction levied by Russia and does not lead to a swift Russian defeat then the war in Ukraine can continue for decades. There's no shortage on either side of young lives that can be destroyed by half measures.
    And how you account for the ledger matters if you are comparing ledgers. A Javelin missile that was going to be destroyed by the us in another year because it reached its end of shelf life blowing up a Russian tank? Is that a full price javelin? How do you value a used CESAR or pzh2000? (Ukraine seems to value them highly)

    anyways, Putin wants to do the only thing Russia is good at. Killing Russians

  6. #9706
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Aspen
    Posts
    3,058
    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    Germany and France should be absolutely hideously embarrassed by this. They should be repeatedly called out publicly.

    Attachment 426983
    Is Russia close to making it onto the list, with their giveaways over the last few weeks???

  7. #9707
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    closer
    Posts
    5,670
    Since I've just found what Germany has sent inthe last 30days alone(ringtausch means they get stuff from Germany and send that to ukraine on our behalf) no one has sent more:

    40 BMP-1s per Ringtausch von Griechenland
    30 BMP-1s per Ringtausch von Slowakei
    28 M-55 Panzer (modernisierte sowjet Panzer) per Ringtausch von Slowenien
    50 Dingos
    2 weitere MARS II mit 200 GMLRS-Hochpräzisionsmunition
    4 weitere PzH 2000 und 155mm Munition
    4 weitere Gepard (damit sind 24/30 ausgeliefert)
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  8. #9708
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,531
    Isn’t some of that Germany being an intermediary for Greece, Slovenia, Slovakia? Not that that’s nothing, because arms end up in Ukraine. On a similar note who’s the intermediary for Iranian ammunition? 2022 Iran produced 122mm and 152mm shells have en bulk ended up in Ukraine, via whom?

  9. #9709
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    I can still smell Poutine.
    Posts
    24,504
    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Isn’t some of that Germany being an intermediary for Greece, Slovenia, Slovakia? Not that that’s nothing, because arms end up in Ukraine. On a similar note who’s the intermediary for Iranian ammunition? 2022 Iran produced 122mm and 152mm shells have en bulk ended up in Ukraine, via whom?
    That's a hoot if Iran is selling arms to both sides.

  10. #9710
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    8,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I guess based on that logic Pootin should invade Belarus now and not wait for the people to rise up and build a democracy that NATO will help defend.
    FIFY

  11. #9711
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,538
    There's the makings of a good book or movie about the decade long spy games, intrigue, sabotage, assassinations and machinations various parties went through to both acquire for themselves and prevent the other side from getting their hands on Soviet standard artillery shells.

    This war didn't just spring out of nothing. Both sides have been preparing for a long time. That's why I think framing support for Ukraine as 'aid' is the wrong way to look at it. Ukraine is fighting Russia's war of aggression on behalf of the Western alliance, not the other way around. Arguably, Ukraine is Europe's best prepared most capable country when it comes to facing off against Russia. If Ukraine had quickly fallen to Russia back in February then Russia would have acquired the military capability of Europe's largest country along with most of its manpower.

  12. #9712
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,938
    Russian incindiary shelling of a liberated village

    Name:  62617739-11231147-image-a-33_1663681333196.jpg
Views: 388
Size:  54.2 KB

    Fuck Putin and his scorched earth tactic

    Vid here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-village.html
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  13. #9713
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    3,581
    Quote Originally Posted by alpinevibes View Post
    Is Russia close to making it onto the list, with their giveaways over the last few weeks???
    Ukraine has indicated it plans to return much of the surplus ammunition that Russia donated.

  14. #9714
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    2 hours from anything
    Posts
    10,732
    Despite all of Russia’s atrocities and Ukraine’s humanity and tenacity in the face of this invasion, many in the GOP will try to cease all aid if they take control of the house or Senate.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-house-defund/


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  15. #9715
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    ECO
    Posts
    5,805
    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    Ukraine has indicated it plans to return much of the surplus ammunition that Russia donated.
    Hopefully so. More hopefully, RU says they don’t want it back anymore. Nyet mas, or whatever.

  16. #9716
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    valley of the heart's delight
    Posts
    2,474
    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    France and Germany were also at the same time supplying arms in much greater quantities to Russia. The problem with Ostpolitik:

    - Germany advocates change through trade. However, the policy of Ostpolitik or transforming authoritarian countries through trade can now be deemed a failure

    - Germany ignored Nato warnings about overreliance on Russian gas

    - Germany rejected nuclear power and now has few alternatives to Russian gas, although that is now changing

    -Germany has an ongoing dispute with the United States over withholding trade with Russia. For +fifty years European business has gone the opposite direction as America

    - “For thirty years, Germans lectured Ukrainians about fascism,” ... “When fascism actually arrived, Germans funded it, and Ukrainians died fighting it”

    - German politicians admit they messed up. German president Frank-Walter Steinmeier admits he misread Russia’s intentions as he pursued the construction of a new undersea gas pipeline. “My adherence to Nord Stream 2 was clearly a mistake”

    - The West should not trade with enemies of democracy. Germany is funding Russia's war of aggression and genocide on Ukraine
    Much of this reeks of predicting the past, and concluding general principles from specific instances.

    There are many examples of democratic transitions following decades of trade with autocracies. Clearly "change through trade" failed in this instance, but it's wrong to declare it was a mistake to try. And many countries, including USA have supported, traded with, and and invested in Russia (and many other autocracies). For every point you list, there are solid arguments for the alternate approach actually taken. Sometimes we do the right thing and it still goes wrong.

    I also don't get the "Germany bad" narrative going around. Smells like Russian propaganda (or other anti-democratic source?). Germany is and has been a strong democratic force. And shows every sign they will be long into the future. And they are taking a huge economic disaster for their efforts to bring Russia into the west. Support Germany.

    Slava Ukraini

  17. #9717
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    8,318
    The Germany bashing is a little tired, but change through trade failed China, just to add the biggest example. Back when the US government was worried about people getting easy access to privacy our corporations were selling the CCP the great firewall. So they could hold a billion people down. To say nothing of the quiet war on western companies' IP. Hindsight is rife with examples of starry-eyed optimists who never had a plan.

  18. #9718
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    valley of the heart's delight
    Posts
    2,474
    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    The Germany bashing is a little tired, but change through trade failed China, just to add the biggest example. Back when the US government was worried about people getting easy access to privacy our corporations were selling the CCP the great firewall. So they could hold a billion people down. To say nothing of the quiet war on western companies' IP. Hindsight is rife with examples of starry-eyed optimists who never had a plan.
    I favor looking at policies and how and why they fail, and looking for better approaches. I went for a walk after writing that, and was thinking China is an example where more pressure should have been applied starting in the 90s if not sooner (post-Tienanmen). Russia always had my attention, but wasn't clearly a bad actor until Putin put Medvedev in charge. That to me was the sign we should put them on the shit list. Not that I know of any easy answers to the question of guiding countries toward peaceful coexistence (including my own).

  19. #9719
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    8,318
    That last bit explains most of our difficulty: why didn't the invasion of Georgia mean anything to us? Or the second Chechnyan war? At some point it was evident that Pootin seized power through terrorism. That point likely came at the time, to the CIA et al, but when would believing that have been convenient? Never for Clinton and even less post 9/11.

    By the time Pootin invaded Georgia all W could do was sit there next to him and try to get another look in his eyes--desperate to believe this guy was a partner and not a perpetrator, despite all evidence. Seems likely the evidence would have first come from that agency that didn't buy in to the WMD line, though, or worse yet some leftist journo. We put egos in charge and they kick the can.

  20. #9720
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Mayonnaisium
    Posts
    10,467
    The special military operation has gone super special with the call-up.

  21. #9721
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,538
    Quote Originally Posted by LongShortLong View Post
    Much of this reeks of predicting the past, and concluding general principles from specific instances.

    There are many examples of democratic transitions following decades of trade with autocracies. Clearly "change through trade" failed in this instance, but it's wrong to declare it was a mistake to try. And many countries, including USA have supported, traded with, and and invested in Russia (and many other autocracies). For every point you list, there are solid arguments for the alternate approach actually taken. Sometimes we do the right thing and it still goes wrong.

    I also don't get the "Germany bad" narrative going around. Smells like Russian propaganda (or other anti-democratic source?). Germany is and has been a strong democratic force. And shows every sign they will be long into the future. And they are taking a huge economic disaster for their efforts to bring Russia into the west. Support Germany.

    Slava Ukraini
    Germany is coming around, but until recently Germany was not really with the Western alliance.

    A lot of the post WWII narrative about Germany is a story told in response to the Soviet Union and the Cold War. Germany had and has had a completely different lived experience in the post war era that differs from popular conceptions in America. So it's not a question of "Germany bad" as it is Germany has for decades castigated the American stance on Russia including sanctions on Russia over its previous invasions of other countries.

    The same is true about Russia and popular notions in America about the idea of a Czar. The Russian polity is not so much enamored with the idea of Czar as they are apathetic about the current regime specifically and democracy in general:

    "most people [in Russia] don’t watch political programs on TV, nor do they watch oppositional media on the Internet. They are not interested in any kind of politics whatsoever. The whole spectrum of political opinion — including both loyalists and the opposition, whether leftist or fascist, liberal or conservative — represents maybe 15 to 20 percent of the population, probably less than 10 percent. The rest are totally apolitical.

    On the one hand, that’s a great advantage for the regime, but it’s also its biggest problem. Nobody moves against the government, but nobody moves in favor of it, either. "

    https://jacobin.com/2022/07/russia-u...vladimir-putin
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 09-21-2022 at 08:27 AM.

  22. #9722
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,938
    So Putin has about 6 months to get his reservists trained up and a bunch of Soviet era equipment out of deep storage for them to die in. Some will have to be put on the front by December or January as the contracted soldiers' contracts are mostly expiring about then, unless he pulls a neoSoviet equivalent of Stop Loss.

    Hopefully Putin can't take it anymore and jumps out a third story window with 3 bullets in his skull.

    Otherwise the Ukes will have a lot more Russians to kill next summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Germany is coming around, but until recently Germany was not really with the Western alliance.
    Good one sentence sitrep
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  23. #9723
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,531
    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    So Putin has about 6 months to get his reservists trained up and a bunch of Soviet era equipment out of deep storage for them to die in. Some will have to be put on the front by December or January as the contracted soldiers' contracts are mostly expiring about then, unless he pulls a neoSoviet equivalent of Stop Loss.

    Hopefully Putin can't take it anymore and jumps out a third story window with 3 bullets in his skull.

    Otherwise the Ukes will have a lot more Russians to kill next summer.



    Good one sentence sitrep
    contracts have been extended for the duration now, which is sure to boost morale.

  24. #9724
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,538
    The main reason Putin hasn't called for mobilization until now is because he's relying on public apathy rather than public support. Even before partial mobilization was officially announced rumors it was coming resulted in a massive spike in Russians searching the web for ways to both leave the country and to avoid conscription. Which begs the question will there be an exit ban for young males in Russia? A traffic jam today at the Russian border with Finland:

    https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1572568782748680194

  25. #9725
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,938
    Since this is now a long war, we should start equipping and training Ukrainians as such.

    We can start training Ukrainians on western aircraft. AMARG can start restoring aircraft. Throw some modern targeting and EW packages on older airframes then fly them from AZ to UKR. There are plenty of F-16s, F-18s, E-2s, S-3s, and C-130s. Many are probably in fly-hold or 1000 returnable condition. While some of these are used for spares, most will end up scrapped if not brought online and donated to UKR.

    Sierra Army Depot in CA has 26,000 stored armored vehicles. We have 2000 M-1 tanks sitting there that we will never use. That they are worn is fine. They only need to last another 1000mi. They would be a more than excellent counter to the 1000s of clapped out T-62s (and older) that Putin is having brought out of storage. The difference is the M1s we send can outfight the T-62 any day with better sensors and fire-while-moving gyrostablized guns while the T-62s stop to fire, then the autoloader loads the gunner's arm into the barrel. Sierra also has thousands of M-2 Bradleys.

    This is a slow motion Soviet invasion of Europe that the West always prepared for, just 30 years later than we thought, and fought on the Ukrainian plains instead of the central German plains, and Ukes are dying instead of NATO. If such a horrific thing was bound to happen, this is literally the least terrible way for it to happen.

    Now is the time to use the deep storage arsenal of democracy. We'd never use it in a war with China as there would be no time to prepare and no place to deploy such assets.

    Perhaps the material support would make Putin back down before the fight. Facing off against Abrams tanks certainly would make his reservists run.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •