Ukraine

[neufox47]

I don't know if there will be peace, i just think that it should be.

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This is just painfully stupid reasoning. I’m sure Russia will stop killing and raping Ukrainians as soon as they surrender.

Ukrainians also are overwhelmingly against surrendering to Russia. Yet you know better than them? Who the fuck are you Rod? Just the guy who conveniently has invested directly in Russian companies, is against all sanctions on Russia and against providing aid to Ukraine.

[bennymac]

I still don't understand why you guys think more people dying is better than peace.

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Because your “peace” still involves many people dying. JFC you live in a fantasy world. Get a grip on reality.

[schuss]

Also Russia cannot be trusted to actually keep a peace treaty. Any peace treaty that moves the lines just makes the start of the next Russian invasion. They need to take a negative value from this whole business for there to be ANYTHING positive out of this that will prevent it from happening again.

[From_the_NEK]

I'm pretty sure rod's username is purposely created since this "rod" is so effective at trolling.



At least I hope that is the case. Otherwise he's just a pure imbecile.

[LongShortLong]

I'm all for peace and fewer people dying. 100%. War sucks.

The best path I see involves killing a bunch of militant Russians in Ukraine. Now if the Russians would go back to Russia... I foresee both peace and fewer people dying. Until then I maximally support Ukraine's effort to send said Russians home by military means. Cargo 200. If somebody has a better method to encourage militaristic despots to change, I'm open to it. We already tried peaceful development, trade, and diplomacy. Putin and the Russians decided to have war instead. I'm an unwilling participant.

As for Ukrainian concessions, I'm willing to consider letting Russia keep Moscow and Putin. Though it may be wiser not to. Putin done fucked up, and if possible it's best for the world to remove Putin and Putinism. Criminals should do their time.

[Toadman]

Peace through strength. That's what Ukraine is working to achieve. More and more help from NATO and they should get there.

[highangle]

I still don't understand why you guys think more people dying is better than peace.

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As it stands now, Russians dying is preferable to Russian peace.
Even Putin agrees with that.

[summit]

There is no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there is only one guaranteed way you can have peace–and you can have it in the next second–surrender.

Admittedly there is a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson in history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement, and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight and surrender. Who believes that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery. If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin–just in the face of this enemy? The martyrs of history were not fools, and neither are the Ukrainians.

[frorider]

Moral calculus of war is complicated. There’s a reason that hardcore Libertarianism and Pacifism are appealing concepts to a 20 yr old college student but typically get rejected or develop shades of grey as one ages.

Most of us view a nation’s right of self-determination as not only a basic tenet of intl law, but an aggregated example of basic human rights. In the Ukraine case it seems pretty fucking clear.

[PB]

Damn fine posts, gentlemen.

[neufox47]

Here’s some news for Benny the dumb. Theatre was hit by two missiles. Hundreds killed.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...ee579225c75fe8



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[KQ]

Here’s some news for Benny the dumb. Theatre was hit by two missiles. Hundreds killed.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...ee579225c75fe8



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Shopping mall hit the other day too. Gotta get those Nazi while they are out buying new BVDs


Terrifying new video captures moment Russian AS-4 missile slams into Ukrainian mall killing 18, debunking Kremlin claims that a blaze accidentally spread from a 'weapons store' targeted nearby

[J. Barron DeJong]

Shopping mall hit the other day too. Gotta get those Nazi while they are out buying new BVDs


Terrifying new video captures moment Russian AS-4 missile slams into Ukrainian mall killing 18, debunking Kremlin claims that a blaze accidentally spread from a 'weapons store' targeted nearby

FWIW (and really, I’d say it’s not worth much), yesterday the UK (not UKR) ministry of defense said it was possible the shopping mall was hit by accident. There was apparently a target of military importance nearby.

[KQ]

FWIW (and really, I’d say it’s not worth much), yesterday the UK (not UKR) ministry of defense said it was possible the shopping mall was hit by accident. There was apparently a target of military importance nearby.

That's a load of crap and whoever said that should be slapped. There shouldn't be any bombing of anything because Ukraine did nothing NOTHING to deserve any of this.

[J. Barron DeJong]

That's a load of crap and whoever said that should be slapped. There shouldn't be any bombing of anything because Ukraine did nothing NOTHING to deserve any of this.

It’s from the the ministry’s official statement yesterday:



I don’t think they’re trying to minimize the horror of the situation, just trying to relay accurate information.

[abraham]

That's a load of crap and whoever said that should be slapped. There shouldn't be any bombing of anything because Ukraine did nothing NOTHING to deserve any of this.

As I recall it was a factory and it was hit, though not as effectively as the mall. Also the missiles used were old antiship missiles so they may have actually missed.
Not that it excuses any of the aggression from Russia.

[dunfree]

If the 3.1mile circular error probability number is correct (50% of launches would hit within 3.1 miles of the target) for a KH-22 in land attack mode, missing is pretty much a given.

[KQ]

Honest to dog I cannot believe anyone is arguing about where missles are hitting Ukraine. Missles shouldn't be hitting Ukraine period.

Sounds like people are normalizing this whole thing. Making excuses for what Russia is doing.

[dunfree]

the choice to fire an old shitty inaccurate missile at a target anywhere within miles of civilians means you are ok with the chance of killing civilians. Lots of them. Which Russia is. It’s not an accident or a mistake

[Toadman]

I read somewhere, maybe it was the Ukraine MOD site, that Russia is firing an estimated 60k shells a day. I'm guessing when they say shells, they are talking artillery. I just still can't wrap my head around that volume of artillery being fired, and how Ukraine forces can absorb those blows and continue to fight back.

I guess Russia is good at mfg. artillery shells, and vodka.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Honest to dog I cannot believe anyone is arguing about where missles are hitting Ukraine. Missles shouldn't be hitting Ukraine period.

Sounds like people are normalizing this whole thing. Making excuses for what Russia is doing.

My intention is not to ‘normalize’ anything. Any deaths happening in UKR are 100% on RU and Putin. They started this by choice and, they could end it immediately if they wanted to.

I just try to keep myself grounded in the facts, and try to avoid getting myself worked up on the worst interpretations of the horrors we’re witnessing. (Maybe a coping mechanism more than anything….)

[KQ]

My intention is not to ‘normalize’ anything. Any deaths happening in UKR are 100% on RU and Putin. They started this by choice and, they could end it immediately if they wanted to.

I just try to keep myself grounded in the facts, and try to avoid getting myself worked up on the worst interpretations of the horrors we’re witnessing. (Maybe a coping mechanism more than anything….)

LOL! You're just fooling yourself and insulting all those Ukranians Russia has and will displace/rape/kill. The facts are that Russia wants to displace/rape/kill any and all Ukranias regarless of age, sex, health or occupation.

[jono]

LOL! You're just fooling yourself and insulting all those Ukranians Russia has and will displace/rape/kill. The facts are that Russia wants to displace/rape/kill any and all Ukranias regarless of age, sex, health or occupation.

There's no particular disagreement about that, but if they can do it by hitting military targets first and then walking in to finish the job it would be easier for them. That's the point: hitting a mall while Ukrainians hit ammo dumps is not a winning strategy.

[Viva]

I read somewhere, maybe it was the Ukraine MOD site, that Russia is firing an estimated 60k shells a day.

I guess Russia is good at mfg. artillery shells....

If that firing rate is indeed the case, then Russia had better be good at manufacturing replacement tubes and chambers, too.

[abraham]

If that firing rate is indeed the case, then Russia had better be good at manufacturing replacement tubes and chambers, too.

Evidently they're burning through ammo stored in Belarusian depots. Whether or not that's to keep Russian supplies or because they've used them isn't clear.

Honest to dog I cannot believe anyone is arguing about where missles are hitting Ukraine. Missles shouldn't be hitting Ukraine period.

Sounds like people are normalizing this whole thing. Making excuses for what Russia is doing.

Missiles shouldn't be hitting Ukraine at all. I agree completely.

But for anyone who's paid any attention at all over the last decade it is clear that Russia has no problem directly targeting civilians. Including bombing civilians, waiting for responders, then bombing the responders and survivors.

I think it's worth noting whether or not the bombing of a mall was deliberate, like the rockets fired at the train stations or that theater. Or whether it was due to putting equipment to use that isn't fit for purpose. Where they're basically tossing explosives up without any care where they come down, whether it's a military target, industrial site, or just civilians.

Dunfree's added information here is useful.

If the 3.1mile circular error probability number is correct (50% of launches would hit within 3.1 miles of the target) for a KH-22 in land attack mode, missing is pretty much a given.