Ukraine

[leroy jenkins]

Putin is a Judo black belt and has training from the KGB. Elon has…. a big mouth on twitter? Good marketing though between this and the star link thing. It’s obviously been effective.

He had an honrary belt hat was recently rescinded.


The funniest thing about musks challegne is like, what right does he have to barter ukraine in the gambit?

[leroy jenkins]

You’re not as informed as you think you are


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This is a boring post. Of course everyone is ignorant of more than they are not. Care to educate me? Seriously not sure why youd say this instead of just add seomthing of value but ok, I'm not going to argue minutea with you this time. This isn't even about anything impmorant, that I would think I'm well informed and have some ego to have ideas realted to that. Its just a bit of lighthearted abusidrity in the midst of tragedy.

Aren't I on your ignore list anyways?

[cspringsposer]

I'm coming to the camp that direct action against him is going to be required. Not convinced about it but I can see the argument. If that's the case I don't see the point in waiting.

I have been and am there even though I know I would likely lose friends in the war.

While understanding the legitimate risk of nuclear war (although I personally think it would stay tactical within Eastern Europe IF it happened), I think the risk of inaction outweighs the risks of standing on the sidelines while thousands of innocents are slaughtered and millions flee their homes. We (the US) have the greatest military in the history of human civilization and the moral high ground to use that military to legitimately save lives. If we aren't going to fight for this cause we should cut the military budget in half (or by 2/3) and turn our military into a homeland defense force rather than an expeditionary military.

Additionally, 1) China is watching and shaping their CONOP's for invading Taiwan based on how the US, Europe and other democracies respond to Russia and 2) I don't want to live in a world where any madman with a nuke can terrorize a continent and murder thousand of civilians with impunity.

[Bunion 2020]

ETA: @ cspringposer, I think that a lot of the US is gradually coming around to that same conclusion.

I worked at a restaurant a block away from the White House when that came out, we used to say to customers, "Welcome to the closest restaurant to Ground Zero!" to customers (well a couple customers).

So you don't thnk direct action against Putin himself is a possibilty?

I think that would be the best possible outcome but Putin is a ruthless fucker who probably has also considered that and is doing everything possible to prevent a Project Valkyrie.

[leroy jenkins]

I worked at a restaurant a block away from the White House when that came out, we used to say to customers, "Welcome to the closest restaurant to Ground Zero!" to customers (well a couple customers).

So you don't thnk direct action against Putin himself is a possibilty?

Depending on how this goes I could absolutly see in a year or so some attempt to try him for violations of the geneva convention but the risk to reward of escalting this or destabilzign russia dont seem ideal in terms of like an assasination if thats what you mean.

[dunfree]

He had an honrary belt hat was recently rescinded.


The funniest thing about musks challegne is like, what right does he have to barter ukraine in the gambit?

he’s a fat flabby narcissist attention whore, there’s not much funny about it, just that fools take that tweeting piece of shit with any seriousness. The world would be a better place if they both died

[cspringsposer]

He had an honrary belt hat was recently rescinded.

I believe he is still a legitimate black belt. He was the honorary president of the Intl Judo Federation and was recently suspended from that role.

[leroy jenkins]

I have been and am there even though I know I would likely lose friends in the war.

While understanding the legitimate risk of nuclear war (although I personally think it would stay tactical within Eastern Europe IF it happened), I think the risk of inaction outweighs the risks of standing on the sidelines while thousands of innocents are slaughtered and millions flee their homes. We (the US) have the greatest military in the history of human civilization and the moral high ground to use that military to legitimately save lives. If we aren't going to fight for this cause we should cut the military budget in half (or by 2/3) and turn our military into a homeland defense force rather than an expeditionary military.

Additionally, 1) China is watching and shaping their CONOP's for invading Taiwan based on how the US, Europe and other democracies respond to Russia and 2) I don't want to live in a world where any madman with a nuke can terrorize a continent and murder thousand of civilians with impunity.

To me it seems like the risks are nuclear war and at least world war, or a failed russian state with missing nukes, vs ukrainian lives lost.

I have empathy for them, that risk to reward doesnt make sense to me. Not trying to argue, but can you explain a bit more of what you view the risks of inaction as being so much higher than the risks of action I state? From what you state, it seems more like an emotional line to draw rather than a risk reward assesment. I dont want to live in a world where... I mean I get it not saying its bad, but it isn't a risk to reward assesment really is it? You say you dont want to live in that world but if russia collapses all its nukes will be more dangerous, there will be a loit more madmen with nukes.

Not calling you out or trying to argue really, just, what other risks do you see? Thats all I'm asking for is I'd actually like to hear things I haven't considered.

[cspringsposer]

To me it seems like the risks are nuclear war and at least world war, or a failed russian state with missing nukes, vs ukrainian lives lost.

I have empathy for them, that risk to reward doesnt make sense to me. Not trying to argue, but can you explain a bit more of what you view the risks of inaction as being so much higher than the risks of action I state? From what you state, it seems more like an emotional line to draw rather than a risk reward assesment. I dont want to live in a world where... I mean I get it not saying its bad, but it isn't a risk to reward assesment really is it?

Not calling you out or trying to argue really, just, what other risks do you see? Thats all I'm asking for is I'd actually like to hear things I haven't considered.

I think the risk of every authoritarian regime with a nuke (now and in the future) acting with impunity risks more lives and the greater risk of a nuclear world war (i.e. ICBMs flying) than militarily pushing back one authoritarian that is non-suicidal (MAD is still a deterrent). Not invading Russia, but pushing them out of Ukraine with the support of a near united world.

[liv2ski]

I’m about there myself.

Starting to think that the best way to stop Putin would be to launch a full scale annihilation of Russian troops in UK. Call the midget’s bluff.

In the interim, arrest every single oligarch that we can get our hands on.


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I like the way you're thinking. Steal all assets for the eventual rebuilding of Ukraine.

And fucking shot Putim

[mcphee]

Fuck them and fuck anyone who breaks out the knee jerk Antisemitism shit.


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Unfortunately, AIPAC and other lobbying groups are planting those worms into our elected officials brains and they’re lapping it up, regurgitating it, and being paid well for it.

[liv2ski]

Israel is providing sanctuary to the Russian oligarchs.

Way to spit in your patron’s face Israel.

Why do we financially support this country as they directly undermine us?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...archs-ukraine/


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I have had a problem with their policies forever and would cut off the cash for sure until they got their shit together.

[dunfree]

I think the risk of every authoritarian regime with a nuke (now and in the future) acting with impunity risks more lives and the greater risk of a nuclear world war (i.e. ICBMs flying) than militarily pushing back one authoritarian that is non-suicidal (MAD is still a deterrent). Not invading Russia, but pushing them out of Ukraine with the support of a near united world.

you aren’t wrong, but direct action would likely strengthen putins position. Right now Ukraine is slowly grinding putins military up a tank at a time. Ugly and heart breaking to watch, though

[liv2ski]

you aren’t wrong, but direct action would likely strengthen putins position. Right now Ukraine is slowly grinding putins military up a tank at a time. Ugly and heart breaking to watch, though

If the West issued a statement that there must be an immediate seize fire and Russian troops had 1 week to remove themselves before being destroyed, how does that strengthen Putin's hand at this point in the worlds eyes?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s-nato/627052/
The American fear of escalation has been a repeated note throughout this conflict. But to the extent American leaders express that sentiment, or spread such notions to receptive reporters, they make matters worse, giving the Russians a psychological edge. The Russians can (and do) threaten to ratchet things up, knowing that the West will respond with increased anxiety rather than reciprocal menace. We have yet to see, for example, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin telling the world what a wretched hand the Russians are playing militarily, and how superior ours is—a message he is particularly fit to deliver.

As for the nuclear question: We should not signal to the Russians that they have a trump card they can always play to stop us from doing pretty much anything. Nuclear weapons are why the United States should refrain from attacking Russia directly, not why it should fear fighting Russians in a country they invaded. Only a few years ago, the United States Air Force killed Russian Wagner mercenaries by the hundreds in Syria; American and Russian pilots tangled in the skies over Korea and possibly Vietnam. Nuclear deterrence cuts both ways, and the Russian leadership knows it. Vladimir Putin and those around him are ill-informed but not mad, and the use of nuclear weapons would threaten their very survival.

When the Ukrainians are willing to spill their blood, seemingly without limit, in a wholly admirable cause, American hesitation is heartbreaking. New Hampshire license plates bear the state motto Live Free or Die, attributed to the Revolutionary War General John Stark. The Ukrainians are acting on that belief, which previous generations of Americans acted upon as well.

And it is all completely unnecessary. In many ways, American decision makers are still acting on the basis of widespread prewar analysis of the Russian military that has proved utterly unjustified by events. The Russians do not have what is technically termed escalation dominance. NATO (and above all, American) air power could sweep the skies over Ukraine clear of Russian aircraft, and after a week or two of smashing Russian air defenses, devastate its ground forces. The Russian army is not advancing implacably; it is plagued by incompetence, poor supplies, corruption, terrible morale, bad tactics, and a cause in which its soldiers do not believe. Russian reserves are not like the Israeli reserves, the Finnish reserves, or for that matter the American National Guard: They are badly equipped and do not train. The truth is, with enough arms, the Ukrainians can break the invaders, and in some areas they have begun to do so.

It is not just the fact and the atmospherics of arms supply to Ukraine that matter now, but scale and urgency. The United States has said that it has begun shipping $200 million in aid. That sounds well enough, but when Javelin missiles cost in the low six figures each, that is less than it sounds—and at least an order of magnitude less than is necessary. As the leader of NATO and of the free world, the United States needs to think much bigger than it has thus far. The stream of arms going into Ukraine needs to be a flood.

This is a war of desperate importance not just to Europe but to international order and freedom everywhere. American officials need to rise to the moment. They cannot snipe on or off the record at allies, they cannot dodge the extent of what needs doing, and they most definitely cannot talk as though they are afraid of what Putin may do. That is the most ruinous error of all. They need to say, and say repeatedly, that a Russian war with NATO would only consummate the destruction that the Russian military is suffering at this very moment.

In the movie The Untouchables, the cop Jim Malone tells Eliot Ness what bringing down the gangster Al Capone is going to require: “You wanna know how to get Capone? Here’s how you get him. He pulls a knife; you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital; you send one of his to the morgue … Now, do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?”

Putin and his subordinates are, in fact, less politicians than gangsters, and need to be treated as such. Instead of talk of off-ramps, for example, there should be promises of war-crimes trials (names included) for those who kidnap mayors, shoot at fleeing civilians, and target maternity hospitals; instead of worry about escalation, there should be promises of the eradication of the Russian army in Ukraine should it use chemical weapons. Instead of carefully titrated military aid, there should be a massive effort to arm people who know why they are fighting and are good at it.

This is all bloody and brutal stuff. But, to quote Clausewitz again, “If one side uses force without compunction, undeterred by the bloodshed it involves, while the other side refrains, the first will gain the upper hand.” We are dealing with an enemy that is vicious but weak, menacing but deeply fearful, and that is likely to crack long before our side does—if only we have the stomach for doing what needs to be done.

[Benny Profane]

I’m about there myself.

Starting to think that the best way to stop Putin would be to launch a full scale annihilation of Russian troops in UK. Call the midget’s bluff.

In the interim, arrest every single oligarch that we can get our hands on.


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Arrest them for what?

Hey, how about herding all Russians in America into internment camps, citizen or not. We can apologize later, like we did with the Japanese.

[Timberridge]

Starting to think that the best way to stop Putin would be to launch a full scale annihilation of Russian troops in UK. Call the midget’s bluff.

I may have missed something, the Russian army invaded the UK?

I have an idea. If you need help defending yourself against the neighborhood bully, call Canada.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/connect/contact

[Benny Profane]

Israel is providing sanctuary to the Russian oligarchs.

Way to spit in your patron’s face Israel.

Why do we financially support this country as they directly undermine us?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...archs-ukraine/


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Ah, so this is the line crossed. Apartheid and genocide of the Palistineans didn't count. Got it.

[leroy jenkins]

I think the risk of every authoritarian regime with a nuke (now and in the future) acting with impunity risks more lives and the greater risk of a nuclear world war (i.e. ICBMs flying) than militarily pushing back one authoritarian that is non-suicidal (MAD is still a deterrent). Not invading Russia, but pushing them out of Ukraine with the support of a near united world.

OK, but pushing germany out of occupied territory waasn't going to end WWII, and kicking putin out of ukarine might not end that war either. It may though, I mean Putin isn't actually hitler, morally or like, mental health rationality wise either.

Still seems like risks to that far outweigth the rewards, to me at least, but I respect yoru opinion.




I kind of think though, he won't get away with it with impunity. I get people are dying as we speak, but at the same time, without starting WWIII, Putin might not just 'get away' with this. it very well spell the decline of russian power and influence, and public support for putin in his own coutnry.

the risk to reward to me still seems like its wroth it to wait and keep supplying arms.

[Kinnikinnick]

Arrest them for what?

Hey, how about herding all Russians in America into internment camps, citizen or not. We can apologize later, like we did with the Japanese.

Money laundering.


Seriously bro you are such a dumbass for the most part. Not that you have to agree with me,but really you couldn’t have fired up a brain cell and come up with that yourself?

It’s almost like you are intentionally dense and just trolling…


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[Benny Profane]

Money laundering.


Seriously bro you are such a dumbass for the most part. Not that you have to agree with me,but really you couldn’t have fired up a brain cell and come up with that yourself?

It’s almost like you are intentionally dense and just trolling…


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Haha Money laundering.

You'd have to arrest most of Congress and the boards of our biggest corporations, too.

Why does Apple have a big presence in Ireland? Hint: They don't write better code there.

[Bunion 2020]

I kind of think though, he won't get away with it with impunity. I get people are dying as we speak, but at the same time, without starting WWIII, Putin might not just 'get away' with this. it very well spell the decline of russian power and influence, and public support for putin in his own coutnry.

the risk to reward to me still seems like its wroth it to wait and keep supplying arms.

I am afraid you are probably right. It is going to be very painful to watch as the Russian military stands back and reduces Ukraine to rubble.

What happens if Putin declares that supplying weapons to UKR is akin to an act of war? IMO that will be when we call the bluff.

ETA, Benny, no one cares, just STFU or post something useful.

[toast2266]

Elon’s a soft rich boy who has never taken a punch to the face. My money’s on the old man with experience and who has most definitely killed a man with his bare hands.

Either way we all win. Fuck Putin, fuck Elon.

Putin couldn't even kill a frying pan with his bare hands. Elon's fine - he's got padding.

[mcphee]

Arrest them for what?

Hey, how about herding all Russians in America into internment camps, citizen or not. We can apologize later, like we did with the Japanese.

I’ll bet your dad machined you a whole bunch of participation trophies. I’d also bet he wasn’t really proud of you.

[Kinnikinnick]

Haha Money laundering.

You'd have to arrest most of Congress and the boards of our biggest corporations, too.

Why does Apple have a big presence in Ireland? Hint: They don't write better code there.

So much knowledge in one man…
Not.



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[riser4]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/13/polit...ine/index.html

This is how you get WWIII.