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Thread: Ukraine
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11-18-2022, 08:44 PM #11101
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11-18-2022, 09:08 PM #11102
See post 11078 upthread for great summary of strategic importance of Ukraine.
Syria and Yemen conflicts were/are civil wars. Syria in particular has/had like six or seven sides in the conflict. Multiverse pointed out the particulars of Yemeni conflict above as well.
No idea what you mean by “Iraq”. We spent a Hudge amount of money fucking that place up - cannot possibly reach that level of fail by being hands off. We stayed until their govt tossed us
How’s your Gasprom stock?
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11-18-2022, 09:11 PM #11103
Sure. And do you expect that others ought to agree with this? I've been slow to accept it, being at least mostly human, but after a long struggle it struck me that part of accepting reality as it is is accepting that most won't.
In Cono's case the disappointment is mitigated a little: he grew up third world and apparently what our schools lack in math, reading, science and fútbol we kind of make up for in understanding the basics of MAD and how to react to a bully. It's not much, but it's not nothing.
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11-18-2022, 09:34 PM #11104Rod9301
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11-18-2022, 09:41 PM #11105
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11-18-2022, 09:41 PM #11106Rod9301
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Iraq:
US attacked Iraq on false pretense(wmd).
Russia attacked Ukraine under false pretense.
I don't see any difference between the two, except that, so far, many more people died in Iraq.
And yet there was no outcry in the developed world about the iraq invasion.
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11-18-2022, 09:48 PM #11107click here
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Yes I think they ought to. Being human is a process, with both the short history of one's life so far, and the longer history of prior human culture we can learn from. Where the process is going, who's to say. My opinion is from where I've reached. (Maybe I'll be a raving Randian/selfish prick in a week. Seems unlikely). So I think others ought to think and come to their own conclusions. And they may reach different conclusions and I'm happy to discuss.
However I also accept many people have stunted intellectual growth. I haven't yet figured out how many they are. To the degree that they are many, they refuse reason, and they are led on a path that makes things worse, they are impeding the general welfare and happiness. Hence my thought that maybe the reasonable approach is to create a false leader to lead those who are easily misled.
Perhaps Putin is the true prophet and I'm just a confused spawn of a decadent culture. Though his arguments fail me.
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11-18-2022, 09:49 PM #11108Registered User
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11-18-2022, 09:55 PM #11109
Rod is just re-repeating Putin's oldest and favorite talking point. If Rod were in any way consistent instead of always acting as the main apologist for Russian genocide on this forum he'd argue against wars of conquest and support Ukraine, support Russian sanctions, and support sending weapons to Ukrainians for self-defense.
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11-18-2022, 10:57 PM #11110Rod9301
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11-18-2022, 10:59 PM #11111Rod9301
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11-18-2022, 11:08 PM #11112
You've done less of it recently but consistently either ignored Russian genocide or argued it wasn't happening in the past. Do Groupies for Putin all of the sudden change bands that easily?
Look, as is the case with Yemen wars are not typically clearly "good vs. evil". The Ukraine War is different. Russia's unprovoked genocidal aggression versus Ukrainians simply trying to defend their homes and families is very straightforward.
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11-19-2022, 12:53 AM #11113Registered User
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11-19-2022, 03:42 AM #11114click here
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11-19-2022, 03:53 AM #11115Registered User
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This thread is about what’s happening in Ukraine. It’s not compare and contrast to other wars. You want that discussion, start your own thread. It doesn’t really belong here. It just sounds like whataboutism
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11-19-2022, 09:04 AM #11116
^^^ This
I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.
"Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"
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11-19-2022, 09:36 AM #11117
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11-19-2022, 09:51 AM #11118Registered User
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11-19-2022, 10:16 AM #11119
That was back in the Ttips days of the way OT forum. If Rod had been around he would fucking well know there were a lot of us being highly critical of American actions in Iraq and just like him now, we were raging about it albeit on an even more obscure ski forum.
I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.
"Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"
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11-19-2022, 10:48 AM #11120man of ice
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The obsession with Rod and Cono is tired. Who gives a fuck what they think?
Anything interesting happening in Ukraine?
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11-19-2022, 10:54 AM #11121click here
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11-19-2022, 11:27 AM #11122Registered User
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3 million strong in Rome alone on February 13, 2003. Protest all over Europe of large scale and many smaller ones in the US.
Not much said by the governments representing those countries however if that’s what ya mean.
Big loss of face for the US with that Ill conceived conflict
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11-19-2022, 11:28 AM #11123
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protes...t_the_Iraq_War
According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war.[1]
PEPPERIDGE FARM REMEMBERSj'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi
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11-19-2022, 11:32 AM #11124
In 2003 the US invaded a country that did not threaten America in any way. In 2022 Putin invaded a country a country that did not threaten Russia in any way. It would be delusional to think only America is capable of unprovoked aggression. And yet that is still the basis for some to oppose helping Ukraine against its aggressor, even though opposing the Iraq invasion and opposing the Russian invasion are eminently reasonable positions.
Most Americans came to recognize the United States made a huge mistake with Iraq. Within a year of the invasion public support fell to a low of 39% in mid to late June 2003. After that, even though there were reversals in polls the general trend was downward such that within a few years only 1 in 4 approved of Bush's Iraq policy. The overwhelming majority recognized it was a grave mistake.
Some people are still stuck in 2000s living in the shadow of Iraq. Russian propaganda works in the shadow of those events. Russia serves up bombastic lies in the hopes something will stick. The goal isn't to convince people the lies are true but instead to make the simple seem complex. The goal is to sow doubt among Westerners even though Russian lies never add up consistently.
We shouldn't let Russian propaganda trick us into making the opposite even more disastrous mistake this time.
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11-19-2022, 11:38 AM #11125
Um. No. Before (or rather while)Schröder was bought by putin( we're going full circle here) he said that the Invasion is not justified.
Merkel, who was Opposition leader at that time, got the lube and instantly signaled full Support to Bush jr.
To paraphrase: "I would boldy go where the sun don't shine, my great American friend."It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.
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