2 Helos Crash in Mineral Basin

[MakersTeleMark]

Any pics, MTM? Fascinating.

Unfortunately, no. I was standing with 4 patrollers and some old timers and all of our jaws were on the floor.

I've done a quick look on the internet assuming someone captured it, but no luck yet.

[ptavv]

And fun fact - which it sounds like ptavv might be familiar with - when 47s can’t lift it, the Marines sometimes can lift with their CH-53 Sea Stallions. It's a beast.

This is true, though only of the newest Sea Stallions (King Stallions) iirc. Also, they suck to ride in (even more than a 47!) and cost about the same as an F-35.

[Name Redacted]

I’m sure there’s plenty of Sea Stallions just hanging around SLC. Is there a navy base on the Great Salt Lake?

[ptavv]

I’m sure there’s plenty of Sea Stallions just hanging around SLC. Is there a navy base on the Great Salt Lake?

Hmm. Imagine, if you will, a vehicle designed to travel through the air -- over and around obstacles that would be able to travel from greater San Diego to greater Salt Lake City with only one refueling stop -- conveniently located at around the midway point of the flight at a large AFB outside Las Vegas.

[Name Redacted]

Hmm. Imagine, if you will, a vehicle designed to travel through the air -- over and around obstacles that would be able to travel from greater San Diego to greater Salt Lake City with only one refueling stop -- conveniently located at around the midway point of the flight at a large AFB outside Las Vegas.

Sounds cheap. Totally worth it too.

I have actually ferried multiple helicopters from LA to CO, so yeah, I understand that helicopters can be flown cross country.

[Meadow Skipper]

Sounds cheap. Totally worth it too.

Better just to leave them there then?

Edit: And BTW, Chinooks can apparently lift 26000 lbs at sea level. Might be able to lift 14000 lbs at Mineral Basin.

[ptavv]

Sounds cheap. Totally worth it too.

The most valuable training is doing something for real. Seriously though, it's hard to imagine a better training scenario for a 47 or 53 crew than having to sling load fucked up 60s in the snow at elevation in a totally secure area.

[Name Redacted]

Point is, I think they’ll consider a few other options before a Sea Stallion flys out. Love to hear how they do get it out of there.

[altacoup]

Despite all the talk of these choppers that can lift the wreckage out of there. Who wants to bet me that they don’t fly them out? They’re going to wait for the snow to melt and haul them out

[fool]

Point is, I think they’ll consider a few other options before a Sea Stallion flys out. Love to hear how they do get it out of there.

Agreed. A 47 should be fine. I wanted to mention the 53 for fun, because this crowd likes discussing this stuff.


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[Buzzworthy]

Despite all the talk of these choppers that can lift the wreckage out of there. Who wants to bet me that they don’t fly them out? They’re going to wait for the snow to melt and haul them out

What are the logistics of this though? How does one haul a Blackhawk out of said territory?

[stuckathuntermtn]

What are the logistics of this though? How does one haul a Blackhawk out of said territory?

Sling load underneath.
Edit: sorry, misread.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Despite all the talk of these choppers that can lift the wreckage out of there. Who wants to bet me that they don’t fly them out? They’re going to wait for the snow to melt and haul them out

Either way, they are probably going to have to wait for the snow to melt.
You wanna stand in a Chinook's downwash in the snow while trying to rig up the external hoist? No thanks. Also, the aircrew would be blind and that's part of what cause the accident to begin with.

[beaterdit]

.........................
beaterdit: the tram is almost a mile away.........................

Yeah I was referring to the MBE Chair. Technically a passenger 'ropeway', not tramway. I tend to [incorrectly] use the terms interchangeably. I understand the the relationship Snowbird has with the NG and the value of the training and that's fine but they for sure put a bunch of civilians in significant danger here. Obviously the NG in the Helis and on the ground were most at risk but again, they signed up it. Just luck it wasn't a legit mass casualty incident.

Agreed, and some of could have been active duty for years and racked up a bunch of flight hours. It's really hard to know from the outside.



My hunch is that they thought the snow might be light enough to blow the light/blowable snow away before landing. This is possible with snow and dust, depending on a lot of factors. Perhaps a go around would have made sense but you can’t really do an instrument landing there (well, I imagine they don’t have instrument equipment there), but they could have at least done a “go around” and figure out what to do next, which might be to go back to an airport, etc.



Agreed, and yes, way too slow, but I thought the #2 was close to the 4 o clock? The 10kts is not a bad reference but the speed necessary to avoid whiteout is is based on the snow and wind characteristics (light, heavy, etc.), so perhaps it was worse than expected. (And depending on what they did beforehand, is more reason for a conservative, single UH60 approach on the first go.)



And fun fact - which it sounds like ptavv might be familiar with - when 47s can’t lift it, the Marines sometimes can lift with their CH-53 Sea Stallions. It's a beast.

I'm not a pilot but obviously mistakes were made. The actions of the pilots notwithstanding though, just seems like poor judgement to have the LZ so close to the lift maze and civilians. I get that they want to be accessible for possible rescue but a couple hundred yards wouldn't make much difference for that. The fact of proximity to rescue acknowledges the possibility of shit going badly wrong but no consideration for the safety of civilians in the area?

Whatever happens, I bet they won't be landing there next year, or ever again.

[stuckathuntermtn]

It seems like they were practicing some kind of assault landing with 2 ships in zero viz and they fucked up. And they shouldn't have done it anywhere near people.
On top of the danger, now they have to guard all the military coms/nav/self defense/etc equipment that's part of those things (they probably would have to do that anyway, no matter where).
Also, some of you seem to be forgetting that they can contract with a civi company for extracting the wreckage. There's gotta be some Sky Cranes around before fire season gets into full swing.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Oh, here: https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-...-to-be-removed

I'm curious how they do the sling load. Does the Chinook land and shut down and get hooked up next to the load on the ground?
Do they just put goggles on and deal with the downwash?

AKAIK, the military does actually practice hovering in zero vis, but idk how often or how extensively. I have read about brief hovers just off the ground with the windows blacked out while at the airfield. Sounds rather scary.

[oldnew_guy]

Couple of things….

- Lift capacity on any given day varies based on density altitude.
- If they are going to lift them out they would likely longline it out. I’ve seen them rig up to the mast after removing the blades and just fly it out that way. Probably not much risk of a white out with a typical 150’ longline as you are typically out of ground effect. Maybe have to sling it under the fuselage depending on what condition it is in.

Safest thing would be to ground transport, but if you have to leave guards out there 24/7 that probably doesn’t make sense for long.

And yeah, you just stand under the 47/64 or whatever they are longlining with and hook it up. It happens every day all over the country.


Just call Erickson, they will come get it no problem.

[ptavv]

I'm not a pilot or loadmaster, but have ridden in a fair number of Army helicopters.

They'll probably bring in a loadmaster and the crew chief for a 47, rig up the 60 with the sling straps and everything while not under the rotor wash, then have the 47 come so all they have to do is the hook up and lift while under the rotor wash.

I've never seen a 47 long line something as big/heavy as a howitzer.

[Name Redacted]

Or chop em into pieces and send em up the lift. Haha.

[Meadow Skipper]

Despite all the talk of these choppers that can lift the wreckage out of there. Who wants to bet me that they don’t fly them out? They’re going to wait for the snow to melt and haul them out

I’ll take that bet!

$25 to a local shelter - animal/women’s/homeless - from the loser?

[Meadow Skipper]

Either way, they are probably going to have to wait for the snow to melt.
You wanna stand in a Chinook's downwash in the snow while trying to rig up the external hoist? No thanks. Also, the aircrew would be blind and that's part of what cause the accident to begin with.

Long line.


Edit ptavv and old_new guy beat me to it. And yeah, one of Erickson’s Skycranes will make short work of it.

[oldnew_guy]

Like this but everything is a little bigger:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTbU5RqxSk

[Meadow Skipper]

Like this but everything is a little bigger:

Cool video.

[Touring_Sedan]

I bet they sling them down to Tibble Fork and truck them out from there. Our 206-L4 was unhappy with 3 people and a VCR at Hidden Peak heights, I doubt any pilot wants to risk the exposure of getting those out over any populated areas.

[fool]

Either way, they are probably going to have to wait for the snow to melt.
You wanna stand in a Chinook's downwash in the snow while trying to rig up the external hoist? No thanks. Also, the aircrew would be blind and that's part of what cause the accident to begin with.

Yes, it’s not fun to rig it in Chinook’s downwash but sometimes it has to happen. Dust isn’t fun either. That being said…
1) the sling line is pretty long, so the Chinook is usually high enough to have decent visibility (and if the 47G model is used, it has a (sweet) hover hold, but that’s not needed)
2) the snow doesn’t have to be totally gone. If it’s consolidated, has gone through freeze/rethaw cycles, etc., it will be much easier to deal with. But again with #1, shouldn’t matter for the pilots. It would help out the DART though (Downed Aircraft Recovery Team) though. And see oldnew_guy's comments.

I'm not a pilot but obviously mistakes were made. The actions of the pilots notwithstanding though, just seems like poor judgement to have the LZ so close to the lift maze and civilians. I get that they want to be accessible for possible rescue but a couple hundred yards wouldn't make much difference for that. The fact of proximity to rescue acknowledges the possibility of shit going badly wrong but no consideration for the safety of civilians in the area?

No disagreement from me there. And I know it was brought up in this thread, I don't necessarily think being proximate to rescue avenues is/was a big concern for them. Because the great thing about helos is that if one goes down in a remote spot, you can usually drop in mechanics or support crew nearby (not always but generally).

On top of the danger, now they have to guard all the military coms/nav/self defense/etc equipment that's part of those things (they probably would have to do that anyway, no matter where).
Also, some of you seem to be forgetting that they can contract with a civi company for extracting the wreckage. There's gotta be some Sky Cranes around before fire season gets into full swing.

Yes, guarding is annoying but isn’t that terrible. Civilian contract isn’t likely because
1) it’s good training for the DART (^) and the 47 Crew
2) the logistics and contracts between military and civilian for something like this would be miserable
Perhaps it’s different for the NG - as opposed to active duty where I’m confident in the above - but I doubt it. That being said, as Utah mags hear updates, would love to know more (since I probably won’t see it in the news)

AKAIK, the military does actually practice hovering in zero vis, but idk how often or how extensively. I have read about brief hovers just off the ground with the windows blacked out while at the airfield. Sounds rather scary.

No, hovering in zero viz isn't something that's practiced, at least not without a fly by wire systems (47G and 60M), which is basically autopilot. Perhaps in the simulator - where you can use instruments to try and do it - but it's not advisable in a real aircraft.

They'll probably bring in a loadmaster and the crew chief for a 47, rig up the 60 with the sling straps and everything while not under the rotor wash, then have the 47 come so all they have to do is the hook up and lift while under the rotor wash.

Generally agree. The slinging will be done by the DART, which generally comes from the maintance company of the Aviation Battalion. Then typically the 47 would land, offload the Flight Engineer (and perhaps a crew chief) to inspect the sling with the DART for final checks. Then the Flight Engineer would get back in the 47 and begin the sling load, with the DART dealing with the downwash. (Which oldnew_guy covered well. It sucks but it’s not a big deal).

What are the logistics of this though? How does one haul a Blackhawk out of said territory?

I think that covered a fair bit of it but I can try to add more details in the next day or two.