Backlash Against Vail Resorts

[total_immortal]

I kind of hope this turns into the Vail Resort (the actual, flat, ski hill) discussion thread...

[NakedShorts]

I do not really get their game ( I mean I do - Screw the local bastards and play real nice and pretty for the out of towners)

I ski at a resort that has been brought under the wings of #Fail.
I knew from day 1 that it would be BAD - Well they did keep it open - Mostly
They pretend like skiing isn't cool come April and close EARLY and also pretend that the mountain NEVER stayed open later.

It is stupid to me that they have pretty much forced me to Boycott spending additional money beyond my pass for more than 1 or 2 reasons.

The food options are worse and more expensive so we do not bother.
I do not drink so they don't get those $'s either. $14 beers sound tasty don't they.
The new motto of just sell as many passes as possible and say screw-it to what actually happens day to day is beyond me.

So yea I understand why they do not care about my type...But my family also rakes in 6 digits and have full EPIC passes so even though we are Locals we are prime targets for Travel to other locations and have the funds to spend $ at the resort.

[dunfree]

You are not wrong, but fighting lobbyists is not quick nor a sure thing. Vail alone is 11B in market cap and has over 1B in cash on hand. Who knows what KSL (Alterra) has as they are a private equity firm. Even "independent" mountains are owned by megacorps. A-Basin is owned by a multibillion dollar Canadian RE/resort firm, but they promote their plucky independent image (they are given a freer hand).

Would you rise up and storm Olympus? Trust busting is so 1901. Better bow before your corporate gods, peasant.

Vail Resorts spent a grand total of $80k lobbying the feds between 1998 and 2020 per opensecrets; KSL spent $0. The power they have is more of the soft variety. (Yes, employees of both donated far more money, but that’s a more complicated subject)

[Jax]

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

[summit]

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

That letter is awesome

[Bunion 2020]

Who ya gonna believe? Me or your own lyin eyes.

[Benny Profane]

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

Oh, snap.

[SkiBall]

Tuesday or Wednesday you can maybe ski up to the lift. As long as it hasn’t snowed.
Every other day, full maze.

[wolfelot]

For a number of years there was all kinds of talk about too few new people starting to ski and wait until the boomers can’t ski in addition to it being too expensive. That was all going up add up to problems for the industry.

Is skiing now really truly cheap? For most people I don’t think so.

Is it because COVID has funneled people towards skiing?

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

[wolfelot]

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

How did Vail define skier numbers being down? There are plenty of ways that can be defined to their benefit.

[The SnowShow]

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

If that’s the case, that’s really, really sad.

[iriponsnow]

Is it because COVID has funneled people towards skiing?

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

*Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

I don't think they know any different & really don't care as long as they get a couple instagram shots & have a craft beer. I was subjected to rather sloppy young women dancing on wall in the courtyard this weekend to "I Feel Like a Woman" and it felt as if I had just joined a class action PTSD lawsuit for damages suffered. They could not have cared less about skiing & yet are congesting the hill & bottlenecking all sorts of areas that never had problems. The demographic coming to the hill is certainly changing.

[Bunion 2020]

Get off my LAWN!

[summit]

If they aren't out skiing, then they aren't congesting things. Try again.

I think skiing is literally so much easier with modern gear, better fitting boots, and rockered everything that people can ski more laps on harder terrain without tuckering out. I didn't say ski well, I just said ski.

That meas people stay out a little longer, and the high speed high capacity lifts keeps skiers on the runs instead of the line. So, the slopes are crowded with a higher number of less experienced people in higher skill terrain, whether that means they are on a green instead of a bunny hill, a blue instead of a green, or blacks and trees instead of a blue. And they are all skiing not in line, as much.

[Core Shot]

Meh.

There’s a certain instagram YouTube component.

But that’s not the insanity.

It’s the mega pass. Free days in so many resorts.

It’s why ikon had to charge extra for Jackson hole and Aspen.

Vail has yet to learn that lesson.

[Percy Rideout]

I understand how SUPs work, but as I previously posted, even when renewing the SUP, the government legally cannot discriminate against the business model or the owners. SUPs generally specify what the permit holder can/can't do to the physical land and resources, but not how the business is operated. For example, the SUP may allow a new lift to be installed according to the operator's master plan, which is included in the SUP application, but the SUP cannot require that lift be operated a minimum number of days, because it is private infrastructure on leased land. The reason I implied you are wanting government run ski areas is the fact you keep harping on the Forest Service to fix the problem. As long as the ski resort adheres to the master plan submitted when applying for the SUP and doesn't start illegally cutting runs or diverting creeks or building un-approved lifts, the Forest Service doesn't care if the lift line is 8 hours long. And resorts may not be able to force the Forest Service to renew the SUP, but as long as the resort hasn't had any major transgressions, the operator can take the forest service to court if the renewed SUP is too restrictive for no good reason.

How does a non-profit have better tools to manage crowds than a private firm? The non-profit I ski at multiple times a week doesn't seem to have any different tools from the private ski areas I have been to, either on public or private land. If anything, the private resorts have faster lifts to move the lines more quickly. Non-profits can issue permits to their ski area, but a private firm can't? Weren't the reservations last year this exact thing?

It's a business issue, not a government issue.

I'll admit I am extremely uninformed on the Seattle ski scene, but a quick google search of the Seattle area shows something like 7 ski areas between White Pass and Stevens Pass, so I'm not convinced Crustal is the only option. It may be the biggest and have the best terrain, but again, the Forest Service doesn't give a fuck. The public land access issues are another argument and I guarantee the PNW is not the only area with access issues in the winter. I will say you have far more logging roads and less wilderness than where I live, so go buy a sled instead of continuing to support something that is ruining your ski experience.

The USFS does care about overcrowding. Attached is a link below setting the precedent. (at boundary waters).

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota...e-overcrowding

[goldenboy]

For all the fuckups Vail had here in CB, the last 3-4 weeks have been OK. Lifts are spinning, terrain is open. Thankfully we're still far enough away that the crowds aren't that big of a deal: a weekend line might be 4 minutes instead of 0 on a weekday. /antijinx

I'll still happily welcome a new owner, but it could be worse (like it was in early January)

[Benny Profane]

Sorry it's Facebook, and double sorry it's Billy Joel, although the song does fit.

Breck this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/202333...1958?fs=e&s=cl

Maybe it's also mixing up with that crepe line.

[The SnowShow]

Sorry it's Facebook, and double sorry it's Billy Joel, although the song does fit.

Breck this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/202333...1958?fs=e&s=cl

Maybe it's also mixing up with that crepe line.

How do parents do it? There’s no way I’d wait in a line like that just to get to the gondola just to get to another shitshow at the base of Peak 8, with impatient kids. And there’s no way I’d do it as a kid.

How do vacationers come back each season to ski and deal with this shit in Summit County?

Utah resorts are so much easier and less crowded (except PC); I just don’t get the appeal of flying into Denver, sitting in hours of traffic to get to Breck, then having this as your ski vacation. Not to mention hour long waits to cram into a restaurant for dinner. And yet people come back over and over again, year after year.

[Core Shot]

Friends don’t let friends ski Presidents weekend.

[Benny Profane]

And on top of that, pay seven figures for a house/condo there.

Last period of time I spent there was nearly three months in '14 (Frisco), and I skied Breck once, and that was a Friday that was like most Saturdays elsewhere. I said, nope, never again. Denver suburb. I'm guessing it's much much worse. Shame, nice mountain on top
ABasin's decision to exit the Epic pass just looks smarter and smarter.

[Benny Profane]

https://www.stormskiing.com/p/is-it-...m_medium=email

[summit]

https://www.stormskiing.com/p/is-it-...m_medium=email

If such a thing were to be enacted, Vail's capacity limits will be determined by its lobbyists and political donations

[Benny Profane]

The best short article I've read about this thing.

https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/skiers-revolt

[SkiBall]

Many flaws have been brought to the spotlight, so now we see what they view as a solution. It will start with Epic pricing for next season which should come any day now as tis the season.

Edit: So, it looks like their first “solution” is to extend season to May 1.