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Thread: Wildfire 2022

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    Old growth in a lot of areas of the Americans were heavily manipulated by man for thousands of years.

    There was a guy on Twitter that was posting some 19th century maps on Yosemite valley last month, one map included the location of the saw mill that John Muir build.

    CH has had a direct role in poor forest recovery in the western Sierra following high severity fire. There’s a scar in eldorado NF where the topsoil washed away because CH sued the NF’s NEPA compliance for the response/recovery/salvage operations. He didn’t sue the Tahoe NF for the same practices for the same fire. There’s a location where you can see (or at least used to be able to see) the border between the two NF’s because of the soil post-fire.

    In my neighborhood, a 20 dbh pondo pine would be less than 50 years old. With no management except for fire suppression, my next door neighbor had 72 pondo pines on less than an acre that were larger than 20” dbh. It was very dense. (They all died from a single pine beetle infestation)
    Thought bubble, not necessarily advocating for this.

    If man has “managed” the forest for thousands of years and created a OG characteristic “Y” that takes 150-200 years to get to, has man now managed differently for 100 years and created OG characteristic “X” that takes 75-120 years to get to?

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    At the same time, it’s a stretch to say logging makes wildfire worse, esp in select cut situations
    Don't think it's a stretch at all, but exactly what happens. The replacement forest is densely packed trees that support crown fires. And the recently cut areas regrow with dense brush that carries fores to said crowns. Read the reports on California's big fires - most of them cover this.

    Could we successfully log to create firebreaks? Maybe, but I doubt even that. For the first year or two we've got a firebreak. For the rest of forever, who's paying to clear the brush every few years?

    Simple answers for complex problems don't work.

  3. #228
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    Are you talking clearcuts only LSL? In my neck of the woods the FS does the majority of their cutting as commercial thinning operations. Typical with piles burned afterwards. I don't think they make a shitbit if money off of it but it seems to keep them from getting sued as much.

    And we can log in a sustainable manner to reduce burn intensity. This thinning operations are not a failsafe but as a whole they can reduce burn intensities. Here is a paper that retrospectively evaluates the success of thinning and fuel reduction projects after a large fire. That fire was practically in my back yard so I'm kinda invested in that one.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...riven_wildfire

  4. #229
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    That is definitely a paradigm established by Olmsted (don’t cut down or burn anything), but I’m not sure if current private forest plantation practices need to follow that practice. There are new industries coming out for wood, such as mass timber construction, which may change what is considered marketable.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Thought bubble, not necessarily advocating for this.

    If man has “managed” the forest for thousands of years and created a OG characteristic “Y” that takes 150-200 years to get to, has man now managed differently for 100 years and created OG characteristic “X” that takes 75-120 years to get to?
    “OG X” would need to include growth for 75-120 years followed by high severity fire followed followed by habitat change away from conifer and conifer/oak woodland to more shrub habitat

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongShortLong View Post
    Don't think it's a stretch at all, but exactly what happens. The replacement forest is densely packed trees that support crown fires. And the recently cut areas regrow with dense brush that carries fores to said crowns. Read the reports on California's big fires - most of them cover this.

    Could we successfully log to create firebreaks? Maybe, but I doubt even that. For the first year or two we've got a firebreak. For the rest of forever, who's paying to clear the brush every few years?

    Simple answers for complex problems don't work.
    The issues you describe are due to silvicultural practices, not the harvest. USFS lacks budget for the level of thinning ops (incl Rx fire) needed to maintain a healthy ecosystem on harvested land during growth cycle. Combine that with 100 years of fire exclusion policies and you have overgrown tracts prone to catastrophic fire. Stopping timber harvests isn’t going to change that.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    The issues you describe are due to silvicultural practices, not the harvest. USFS lacks budget for the level of thinning ops (incl Rx fire) needed to maintain a healthy ecosystem on harvested land during growth cycle. Combine that with 100 years of fire exclusion policies and you have overgrown tracts prone to catastrophic fire. Stopping timber harvests isn’t going to change that.
    Yep.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Thought bubble, not necessarily advocating for this.

    If man has “managed” the forest for thousands of years and created a OG characteristic “Y” that takes 150-200 years to get to, has man now managed differently for 100 years and created OG characteristic “X” that takes 75-120 years to get to?
    Couple of thoughts on this
    1. Pre-Colombian Forest management tools were pretty blunt. No doubt they had regular Calf Canyon/Hermit Peak level “oh shit!” events.
    2. While silvicultural practices have evolved, fire exclusion policies have hindered conversion to climax forests.
    3. Public forests are rightfully managed for multiple uses. Some land does well as a single age class plantation. Others are better managed for recreation, water and wildlife management in a climax setting. One management regime does not fit all (file this under “well duh!”)

  8. #233
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    Looks like TBS is about to start smoke season. Good luck!

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongShortLong View Post
    Don't think it's a stretch at all, but exactly what happens. The replacement forest is densely packed trees that support crown fires. And the recently cut areas regrow with dense brush that carries fores to said crowns. Read the reports on California's big fires - most of them cover this.

    Could we successfully log to create firebreaks? Maybe, but I doubt even that. For the first year or two we've got a firebreak. For the rest of forever, who's paying to clear the brush every few years?

    Simple answers for complex problems don't work.
    CA used to establish and maintain firebreaks all over. The BLM has begun installing them in some locations.

    The biggest problem I see is that unless you can burn it out under favorable weather conditions they don’t work for fires today that routinely spot 1/4 mile or more.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Looks like TBS is about to start smoke season. Good luck!
    Yup. Lightning activity has been intense last two days. Was standing in rain at 95* last evening watching a huge electrical storm.

    The ones on the Metolius arm should get contained today.
    The one by Diamond Lake is a little more scary. PCT is now closed between there and Bend.

    AQI still in the “moderate” level.

    Will see what happens this afternoon - Fire, or rain?

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner View Post
    There is a different set of insects that attack live trees vs dead. More than likely your trees have already been hit and survived.

    The definition of old growth is age dependent, but it's also dependent on the species composition that forms the climax forest. In some cases like temperate rainforests of coastal WA, OR, and SE AK it may take 500+years to get old growth from bare ground. In the Carolinas it may reach climax in 100 years and become old growth at 150 years.
    Good info. Thanks. Two winters ago we had several of our big Jeffrey pines dropping sprays of live needles and twigs during wind events. We'd never had anything like that before. So maybe that was an insect infestation? Last winter, despite the huge storms of December, when branches and trees (and utility poles) were dropping all over the area the same trees did fine.

    Fortunately for our trees (but not so fortunate for our basement and garage) we live in an area of a lot of springs and groundwater. Plus we water most of our property to maintain a rock garden. (I wonder how long we'll be able to do that, but at least for now the groundwater levels where our PUD has its wells are stable.)

  12. #237
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    old goat, the USFS office in susanville includes a research group that's focused on insect infestation. several years ago, one of their lead entomologist gave a talk at our local library. it was when our area pine beetle problem was peaking. he was a very good science communicator and I learned a lot (there was an employee of CH at that meeting - that's another story).... anyway, i suggest keeping your ears open if the usfs does a similar dog and pony show in the tahoe/truckee area. if you know any foresters or licensed arborists in your area, they very likely can also provide a wealth of information.
    ~~~~~
    here's a timely op-ed: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...fire-practices
    something that is directed for CH and his minions:
    we must acknowledge that fire is part of our baseline environmental condition. Our bedrock environmental laws, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Clean Water and Clean Air acts, and the Endangered Species Act, were adopted at a time when fire suppression was at its peak. We designed these laws with the faulty assumption that people could fully exclude fire and keep our air free from smoke and our ecosystems intact. Therefore, they treat our suite of fire stewardship practices the same as other human activity – akin to building a freeway or power plant – with the attendant regulatory review.

    But fire will burn in one form or another. We need to develop laws and policies that encourage the kind of fire that people and ecosystems need. We cannot have clean water, clean air and critical wildlife habitat if we don’t first have resilient, fire-adapted forests.
    Last edited by bodywhomper; 08-01-2022 at 11:22 AM.

  13. #238
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    Entire town of Lind Washington evacuated.

    UPDATE ON LIND FIRE!
    ALL EVACUATED PLEASE GO TO THE Ritzville GRADE SCHOOL.

    AT THIS TIME ALL RESIDENTS OF THE TOWN OF LIND NEED TO EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY.

    HIGHWAY 395 BOTH DIRECTIONS WILL BE CLOSED FROM PAHA-PACKARD SOUTHBOUND AND NORTHBOUND FROM CUNNINGHAM ROAD

    AT THIS TIME THE INFORMATION IS APPROXIMATELY 10 HOMES HAVE BEEN LOST.

    UPDATES TO THIS POST WILL COME AS INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


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  14. #239
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    Yikes. Those eastern Washington grass fires move so fast.

    Just saw Bring Your Own Brigade on Paramount+. What an amazing film. Hands down the best documentary on fire I've ever seen. Beautiful, maddening, sad, and hopeful all at the same time and explores the issues from a really humble and balanced perspective.

  15. #240
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    LIND, Wash. – Many Lind residents scrambled to evacuate Thursday after a fast-moving wildfire tore through the small town. The 2,500-acre fire struck south of Lind, a town of 535 people in the middle of Adams County, around 11:45 a.m. Thursday.

    In this photo, you'll see David Nissen cutting the fire line in Lind, Washington. He was unreal Thursday. He put that tractor where only a few would dare. He was so close volunteer firefighters pulled up with a fire truck in case his tractor caught fire.

    Some heroes don't wear capes.

    The Lind Fire is now fully contained.

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    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


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  16. #241
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    Respect.

  17. #242
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    Wildfire 2022

    Similar occurred a few years ago near me. Total hero. likely saved a lot of homes and kept the local river canyon from a decimating fire. Had it contained before anybody else arrived
    Last edited by bodywhomper; 08-06-2022 at 12:44 PM.

  18. #243
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    Update from the National Interagency Fire Center:

    #NationalFireNews: Currently, 71 large fires and complexes have burned 1,693,559 acres in 15 states. Seven new large fires were reported yesterday: two in California and Texas, and one each in Georgia, Nebraska and Oregon. More than 12,200 wildland firefighters and support personnel are assigned to incidents. Three Type 1 incident management teams (IMTs), nine Type 2 IMTs and two complex IMTs are assigned to incidents in several western states.

    Critical fire weather with dry and very windy conditions in parts of the Northwest, Great Basin and Northern Rockies areas will increase the potential for wildfires. Wildland fire managers are prepared for possible thunderstorms across Oregon, northern Great Basin and southern Montana that could ignite very dry fuels. #FireYear2022

    When you enjoy your precious public forests, parks and rangelands, it is critical for you to be #FireSafe. Have spark arresters on equipment and vehicles like chain saws, motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles. Exhaust systems on any vehicle can easily ignite vegetation, so drive and park in designated areas keeping off and away from dry grass and brush. Please do your part to prevent wildfires and #RecreateResponsibly.

    The #WeaselFire, U.S. Forest Service - Kootenai National Forest displayed extreme fire behavior. Photo by Kootenai National Forest, InciWeb
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  19. #244
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    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  20. #245
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  21. #246
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    Anti-jinx.

  22. #247
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    ^ Right? Hey, it’s not windy! Oops…

  23. #248
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    https://www.boston.com/news/local-ne...say-officials/
    This thread never seemed like an east coast issue but some of our local hiking spots are on fire and the smoke/smell is blanketing the neighboring towns.


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  24. #249
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    Not to minimize, but WTF are they doing over there in Mass?

    "The Massachusetts National Guard has been brought in to help fight the Briarwood Fire, which has been burning for more than a month across a 19-acre area in Rockport, Gov. Charlie Baker announced Thursday."
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  25. #250
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    How does a 19acre fire burn for a month? That's on a par with the Chanukah miracle.

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