21 dead wolves so far. NW Yellowstone

[Phall]

As a hunter and a proponent of scientific based management of all species. It pains me to read threads like this. This population will rebound rapidly, this isn’t bison on the American west level shit.

Aerial culls happen and will happen in CO once the number decimates the big game herds which generate way more money then front ranger’s desire to see a wolf in the wild will ever think of bringing in.


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[Mazderati]

Wildlife management is a misnomer. It's the dumb dumbs that need to be managed.

[MakersTeleMark]

It's like anything else. When you manage it from too far away, inevitably the pendulum swings and it gets managed too far the other way. That's what we're seeing now. Hopefully it'll balance out.

RE Colorado: Summit is right. That state has no clue about the shitstorm headed their way.

FIFY.

[MakersTeleMark]

As a hunter and a proponent of scientific based management of all species. It pains me to read threads like this. ...

Aerial culls happen and will happen in CO once the number decimates the big game herds which generate way more money then front ranger’s desire to see a wolf in the wild will ever think of bringing in.

Massive development, mostly from front range and other populations have already decimated the elk herds in the western part of the state. This is just a kiss on the sore asshole from a bunch of idiots who have no idea of species management other than closing their garbage cans to not get raccoons.

Seriously.

[irul&ublo]

People who kill animals just to kill them, suck.

If you eat what you kill, as long as you really hunt it, good on you.

If animals have to be managed, sad, but so be it.

Trophy hunters???? Go to fucking hell.

[powpig]

I wonder how that plays out for wolves who are reintroduced on those same public lands.

The original Rocky Mountain Wolves were about 60-80 lbs.
They couldn't be "reintroduced" because, you know, they were hunted to extinction and no longer exist.
The wolves that now populate Yellowstone and the west are closer to 100-120 lbs.
Not really the same thing, and if you're ever unlucky enough to see a hungry one face to face, you'll understand that pretty quickly.

[summit]

If animals have to be managed, sad, but so be it.

Trophy hunters???? Go to fucking hell.

So put your money where your mouth is if you don't like it.

I certainly disagree with waste. I'm no trophy hunter. Hell, I'm not even a hunter if you measure by successful harvest.

But, if you have to cull the animal vs collecting a hunting fee to have it killed, then you do the latter, motivation be damned.

Government culls elk herds in RMNP and other NPs because hunting is not allowed in NPs, and those animals are unharvested, wasted. Hey, maybe wolves make sense in that microsetting! But what about the other 99% of the ecosystem?

Colorado Parks and Wildlife is LARGELY FUNDED BY HUNTING LICENSE FEES, which is primarily made up of out of state big game tags, and most of those tags go unfilled (no kills), and the highest desired tags and thus fees are for "trophy" tags. Hunters have been subsidizing public recreational lands, habitat restoration, and wildlife management for the last century across the USA, and in CO, that is a ton of Texans and other flat landers effectively paying taxes for us (plus stimulating the economy through tourism in shoulder season).

But hunter numbers are falling and the number of tags available craters with the (re)introduction of pack hunting, fast reproducing, apex predators into ecosystems already pinched under the pressures of development and climate change hitting bottlenecks like winter forage range. Predation during winter is a massively outsized pressure point on elk, deer, etc. The wolfpack needs 10 pounds of elk per wolf every day on average. The stress and energy of a chase and escape may later kill an elk in the winter.

So get ready for more fees-to-access public lands for biking, skiing, hiking, all that shit that was previously subsidized by hunting, including trophy hunters looking for that big racked bull/buck. City dwellers who coo over the Hollywood ideal of a wolf at the ballot box are the same city folks who are not going to vote to subsidize your chosen form of enjoying the outdoors. Some of that is already happening. Bird watchers (I am one) have been quite annoyed that they are suddenly asked to pay fees to access a lot of state managed lands that used to be free. More to come.

[MakersTeleMark]

I am a hunter, always have been. Since I was born.

Also a fisherperson.

Also a person with a brain, and a lot of humidity points thinking about long term management of my place and animals' places in this ecosystem.

I have always stood fast on two principals, many more have you, but, never "introduce a species", and never "eradicate a species".

Those two things have always led to very bad things. I feel like John McPhee in a sense. Maybe I should get off my horse and write a piece. The damage is done. We can only do more.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I am a hunter, always have been. Since I was born.

Also a fisherperson.

Also a person with a brain, and a lot of humidity points thinking about long term management of my place and animals' places in this ecosystem.

I have always stood fast on two principals, many more have you, but, never "introduce a species", and never "eradicate a species".

Those two things have always led to very bad things. I feel like John McPhee in a sense. Maybe I should get off my horse and write a piece. The damage is done. We can only do more.

Comparing yourself to the best literary journalist of our time? Let’s see some of your writing. Not a call out, I’m interested.


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[Core Shot]

A WOLF EATING IT'S PREY ALIVE ASSHOLE FIRST WHILE IT SQUEALS IN EXTREME HORROR AND PAIN IS AWESOME, BUT A WOLF GETTING TRAPPED IS UNETHICAL.

Wolves like tossing salad?

Huh. Oh well. At least I learned something today.

[total_immortal]

Problem here is wolf travel is evidently easier outside the Park this year. The wolves would be content to stay in the park and eat elk and buffalo, but snow conditions, etc have them abroad. Montana is not going to suspend trapping and hunting over a vast area to keep 2 dozen wolves alive. The Park Service will pay ranchers for livestock kills, but shepherds and ranchers have not only been killing predators since the dawn of agriculture, but they've developed hundreds of breeds of dogs to more efficiently kill livestock predators.

Wow, there is a lot of wrong information here. Guessing you don't live where this is happening.

The reason more wolves are being killed is the governor lifted quotas on the hunting districts adjacent to YNP. Now, you can sit on the edge of the park with bait and night vision goggles and pick them off the second they cross boundary.

Also, it's not "only 2 dozen wolves", so far 160 have been killed just in region 3 which is SW Montana, that's almost 10% of the estimated population in the area. The 2 dozen wolves references wolves killed from packs that reside primarily in YNP. Also, just to be a bit pedantic, The Park doesn't pay ranchers for livestock kills the Montana FWP does.

Finally, to provide a little additional context. Ranchers around here are begging FWP to manage elk numbers because they are way over their target populations and get into their livestock feed. In fact, the state also loosened regulations on winter hunting of elk (cow only, and they are pregnant at this time of year), to help reduce the numbers.

[Timberridge]

Wolves like tossing salad?

Huh. Oh well. At least I learned something today.

Me too.

[danielasanchez]

Another one killed today.

So nobody aint stopping it?

[MiddleOfNight]

The original Rocky Mountain Wolves were about 60-80 lbs.
They couldn't be "reintroduced" because, you know, they were hunted to extinction and no longer exist.
The wolves that now populate Yellowstone and the west are closer to 100-120 lbs.
Not really the same thing, and if you're ever unlucky enough to see a hungry one face to face, you'll understand that pretty quickly.

Oh I was just thinking about how we issue grazing permits on the same FS/BLM public lands we're now required to put wolves on. Ranchers kill predators, but voters mandate wolves' reintroduction .. Yeah, I agree with those who say a storm is coming to CO. Should be interesting.

[CarlMega]

I don't think most people in understand what CPW actually does or even how its funded. Hint: state areas not BLM, open space, USFS, NPS, etc trails heads and most the shit you do when you don't have a rod or a rifle in hand are not in existential danger because of wolves or really anything with CPW as agency. Tho public recreation and land management could desperately use more funding, CPW is largely responsible for enforcement and related habitat management for 'sportsman' within CO. The are almost exclusively focused on game species.

It's all broken down here:

https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Funding.aspx

"Although CPW became a merged agency in 2011, state statute and federal regulations require that the budgets for parks and wildlife remain separate"

"Hunters and anglers primarily fund fish and wildlife conservation programs, while park visitors support the management of recreational​ lands. This funding is accomplished through purchases of park passes, hunting and fishing licenses, and habitat stamps."

Trails recreation is 4% overall (wildlife & parks) and 13% of just the Parks funding and budget.

If you have specifics on why CPW funding is going to be impacted and thus XYZ recreation is going to shit, I'm eager to learn. But my experience is that CPW cross-agency land impact is usually overstated from the hunting crowd.

[Bunion 2020]

Oh I was just thinking about how we issue grazing permits on the same FS/BLM public lands we're now required to put wolves on. Ranchers kill predators, but voters mandate wolves' reintroduction .. Yeah, I agree with those who say a storm is coming to CO. Should be interesting.

That contention that these are not the wolves that use to be here is utter bullshit.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...rocky-mountain

Mexican gray wolves are the smallest North American subspecies, weighing in at 60-80 lbs.

[Timberridge]

I have a simple solution. What about putting invisible fence collars on the wolves and training them not to go out of the park?

[total_immortal]

I have a simple solution. What about putting invisible fence collars on the wolves and training them not to go out of the park?

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but I was curious so I looked it up and it would take around 420 (heh) miles of invisible fencing.

[BmillsSkier]

I’d rather spend the money on collars for the dickless choads that get a kick out of baiting, trapping, then killing something they won’t eat.

Ball gags to go with it too.

[plugboots]

Ha, cool.
Scooter, my cattle dog, learned pretty quickly that the short burst of pain to pass the invisible fence was worth it to chase deer. Kedar, on the other hand, learned quickly and shivered on the deck when deer were spotted. Maybe PETA could do the collaring and fencing?

[Timberridge]

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but I was curious so I looked it up and it would take around 420 (heh) miles of invisible fencing.

It's doable. We've already put up 650 miles of fence to keep the Mexicans out.

[highangle]

Wow, there is a lot of wrong information here. Guessing you don't live where this is happening.

Guessing you are a priveleged teenage vegetarian gamer who's outdoor recreation occurs on resorts, groomed trails, and and your friends and family's boats? This by your presumptive and prating prose, naive moralization, and failure to even notice the location field in my post header.

The reason more wolves are being killed is the governor lifted quotas on the hunting districts adjacent to YNP. Now, you can sit on the edge of the park with bait and night vision goggles and pick them off the second they cross boundary

Wildlife managers in Montana have determined that the wolf is a predator/furbearer, rather than a big game animal, and set a harvest quota of 330 wolves, no?

Now consider that wolf hunting with bait and night vision on private lands severely limits access to licensed pervs with not only the technologies you describe, but also the permission of the private landowners. Also, it's not really like a video game - it's totally cold and dark, and there's free wolf food in the Park, and sometimes winds change and alert wolves to the trap you got laid out for them. Then you have to kill another cow or horse for bait somewhere else... Very few with both the motivation and the means. Fewer still with the time to waste.

Trapping? There's I don't know how many thousand square miles of Montana. Your goal is to have a wolf step into a 9 inch circle. It's fucking hard.
Pretty sure most wolf trapping is done by A. landowners who might trap a wolf every other generation and, B. 99th percentile trappers who only come to town about twice a year, C. targets of opportunity.

Also, it's not "only 2 dozen wolves", so far 160 have been killed just in region 3 which is SW Montana, that's almost 10% of the estimated population in the area. The 2 dozen wolves references wolves killed from packs that reside primarily in YNP. Also, just to be a bit pedantic, The Park doesn't pay ranchers for livestock kills the Montana FWP does.

Thanks. I'll stand corrected in the specific and confirmed in the general. Your beef is with wolf management in Montana in general. You probably don't really understand that all wolves die, one way or another.

You'd rather see boom/bust population and more wolves dying due primarily to starvation/cannibalism and disease than more stable [managed] populations. You feel a slow lingering death due to starvation is "better" than an instant one at the hand of another natural born killer...

By all means, lobby to lower the quota in that area to something the better angels of NPS can live with. Just spare us the Fucking babyshit.

Finally, to provide a little additional context. Ranchers around here are begging FWP to manage elk numbers because they are way over their target populations and get into their livestock feed. In fact, the state also loosened regulations on winter hunting of elk (cow only, and they are pregnant at this time of year), to help reduce the numbers.

So...all the Free Wolf Food leaves the Park, and the wolves follow, and thus fall prey to Montana trapping laws. And so a biological issue that could be handled by professionals becomes politicized, and, seeing how there's economies of both park contractors and hunting access providers, will eventually result in an allocation solution.

[JONG SLAUGHTER]

MORONS IN CITIES VOTE IN WOLVES, THEN DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT MANAGEMENT IS. THESE ARE THE SAME MORONS SCREAMING "FOLLOW THE SCIENCE". WELL DIPSHIT, WILDLIFE BIOLOGISTS DETERMINE MANAGEMENT NUMBERS.....THAT'S RIGHT, YOUR MORONIC VOTE LEADS TO THE KILLING OF WOLVES.

[Hopeless Sinner]

One fact not touched upon so far is that the 3 states (MT,ID,WY) legislatures have involved themselves in wolf management and passed laws requiring increased wolf kill quotas. It's not the wishes of hunters in general or the professional wildlife managers that are the cause of this. The legislatures are throwing bones to the ranchers and low iq voters since they really can't figure out how to govern other than doing stupid shit.

[JONG SLAUGHTER]

throwing bones to the ranchers and low iq voters since they really can't figure out how to govern other than doing stupid shit.

PLEASE TELL US HOW A DIPSHIT LIKE YOURSELF WHO HAS NO STAKE IN THE GAME IS SMARTER THAN A RANCHER ON THE WOLF SUBJECT.

YOU REMIND ME OF ANY MORON WHO THINKS THEY KNOW EVERYTHING YET COULDN'T CHANGE A SPARE TIRE.