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  1. #1
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    Ski weight variability

    Iím curious if thereís any industry standard regarding weight tolerances, or if anyone has noticed what the upper end of weight variability is within a ski modelís run.

    I picked up some new Black Crows Atris to tour on (I have a pair for resort and love them). Published weight is 2000g. My 2019 (same model other than top sheet) is 2030g. Blister weighed their 2020s at 1993g and 2026g. So. 2000g seems to be reasonably accurate published weight. The new pair I picked up (2021s) both weigh in at almost exactly 2110g.

    Within the resort world, 100g is nothing and Iíd never notice or care. In the touring world, 100g seems like itís right on the cusp. some might care, others donít give a shit.

    Iím mostly in the latter group. But Iím half tempted to bring the skis back to the shop with a scale and see if I can exchange them for another pair closer to the 2000g published weight.

    But before I go in and look like an asshole, Iím curious if 100g is a significant deviation from published weight, or pretty normal.

  2. #2
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    Iíd say +/- 50g is reasonable. Had 3 pairs of Salomon mtn 94ís in my hands. All weighed 140-150g over so I gave up on them. No wonder people say they ski well for their weight

  3. #3
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    My Corvus weigh 150g more than the published weight. I bet they ski better for it. Wouldn't want to tour on them.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  4. #4
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    Skis often get heavier or lighter over the years as the makeup is changed slightly but not enough to warrant calling it an actual update.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samski360 View Post
    Iím curious if thereís any industry standard regarding weight tolerances, or if anyone has noticed what the upper end of weight variability is within a ski modelís run.

    I picked up some new Black Crows Atris to tour on (I have a pair for resort and love them). Published weight is 2000g. My 2019 (same model other than top sheet) is 2030g. Blister weighed their 2020s at 1993g and 2026g. So. 2000g seems to be reasonably accurate published weight. The new pair I picked up (2021s) both weigh in at almost exactly 2110g.

    Within the resort world, 100g is nothing and Iíd never notice or care. In the touring world, 100g seems like itís right on the cusp. some might care, others donít give a shit.

    Iím mostly in the latter group. But Iím half tempted to bring the skis back to the shop with a scale and see if I can exchange them for another pair closer to the 2000g published weight.

    But before I go in and look like an asshole, Iím curious if 100g is a significant deviation from published weight, or pretty normal.
    these are the 184s?
    I would definitely feel like an asshole going in over 100g on a 2000g ski.

    for the industry, I imagine it's by no means standardized.

  6. #6
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    I would also say that +/- 50g of variation from the measured weight of skis from a same year is typical. If you compare measurements at Blister, Evo, us at SoothSki, and a few others, you should get something in that ballpark.

    Values in catalogs are sometime weight projection given the year prior to even producing the full lineup.

    Material sourcing from one year to the other is tricky. Even if the manufacturers are using the same recipe, they might not have the exact same ingredients to work with every year. Wood is variable. Manufacturers also sometime change manufacturing facility from one year to the other. In these conditions, weight variations can be larger.

    There is no standard and some are looser than other on QC. You have to decide how much you care about that stuff. However, if you just bring an unused/undrilled pair back to the shop to find the lightest pair in the rack, I don't think anyone would really mind. It doesn't cost them anything to make you fully happy. I don't think however that I would ask for much more than that for a 100g variation on a 2000g ski.

    Weight variation on the same construction can be an indication of a slightly ticker/thiner core (it can also be an indication of other things: more epoxy, wood density, etc.). A small weight increase can result in a larger flex (bending stiffness) increase because stiffness is a cubic function of thickness. For exemple, on a 2000g ski:
    - 50g weight increase (2.5%) --> 8% increase in average stiffness
    - 100g (5%) --> 15%
    - 150g (7.5%) --> 25%

    You would see even more stiffness changes in the tip/tail a they are thinner to start with.

    You can see below that stiffness and weight are actually correlated in the case of our repeated measurements of the Atris (full specs here):

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
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    But, are the bases flat? There needs to be a algorithm taking into account the stated measurements vs. actual measurement for things like length, width, weight, concavity, and who knows what else to determine whether to ski them or ship them back.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alude View Post
    I would also say that +/- 50g of variation from the measured weight of skis from a same year is typical. If you compare measurements at Blister, Evo, us at SoothSki, and a few others, you should get something in that ballpark.

    Values in catalogs are sometime weight projection given the year prior to even producing the full lineup.

    Material sourcing from one year to the other is tricky. Even if the manufacturers are using the same recipe, they might not have the exact same ingredients to work with every year. Wood is variable. Manufacturers also sometime change manufacturing facility from one year to the other. In these conditions, weight variations can be larger.

    There is no standard and some are looser than other on QC. You have to decide how much you care about that stuff. However, if you just bring an unused/undrilled pair back to the shop to find the lightest pair in the rack, I don't think anyone would really mind. It doesn't cost them anything to make you fully happy. I don't think however that I would ask for much more than that for a 100g variation on a 2000g ski.

    Weight variation on the same construction can be an indication of a slightly ticker/thiner core (it can also be an indication of other things: more epoxy, wood density, etc.). A small weight increase can result in a larger flex (bending stiffness) increase because stiffness is a cubic function of thickness. For exemple, on a 2000g ski:
    - 50g weight increase (2.5%) --> 8% increase in average stiffness
    - 100g (5%) --> 15%
    - 150g (7.5%) --> 25%

    You would see even more stiffness changes in the tip/tail a they are thinner to start with.

    You can see below that stiffness and weight are actually correlated in the case of our repeated measurements of the Atris (full specs here):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2022-01-17 at 7.00.04 PM.png 
Views:	257 
Size:	212.4 KB 
ID:	401604
    Alright, that tool is amazing. And good point about taking measures weights from a few ski shops. Seems like the soothski data corroborates Xavierís explanation of minor changes year to year without marketing calling it an update. Interesting how the weight increase closely correlates with the ski stiffness ratings.

    If the 21-22 model I bought is indeed stiffer than my 19-20 version, that would be awesome and likely compensate (from a performance perspective) for the 100g weight increase.

    Interestingly, I just picked up some ATK freeraider 14s and those weight in at the published weight almost to the gram. Obviously much lighter than a ski, so a weight deviation as a percentage would be greater, but impressive nonetheless.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samski360 View Post
    Iím curious if thereís any industry standard regarding weight tolerances, or if anyone has noticed what the upper end of weight variability is within a ski modelís run. .
    does it really matter ?

    Not as in what really matters in life and why are we here

    more wtf is the reason more or less weight would matter at all ?

    I have measured for shits and giggle and IMO the weight wouldnt make one fucking bit of difference unless you are one of those rando atheletes who get paid to run around in the lycra
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    does it really matter ?

    Not as in what really matters in life and why are we here

    more wtf is the reason more or less weight would matter at all ?

    I have measured for shits and giggle and IMO the weight wouldnt make one fucking bit of difference unless you are one of those rando atheletes who get paid to run around in the lycra
    I mean I guess it depends on what youíre comparing to. In my mind the 2000g ski was heavier than any other ski I would consider, given then alternatives. but I chose it because I really liked how the ski performed. Itís not hard to find other similar skis that are in the 1700g weight range with similar dimensions. So when these skis showed up over 100g heavier than my ďlimitĒ the comparison isnít necessarily to the 2000g ski, but to the skis that are 300-400g less (published weight). The question is if the performance benefits justify a difference of 400g.

    Is there an actual difference? I dunno. I guess everyone draws a line in the sand somewhere.

  11. #11
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    My 2021 faction candide 5.0 come in a full 200g heavier than the stated weight on the faction web page for that model year.

    There's a thread around here that says they used a different factory that year which explains the difference, but it is weird that the manufacturer doesn't even tell you this.

    For my intended use in bounds I'm ok with it, but if I wanted to tour on these and I was 200g over, I'd be disappointed.

    And yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd notice that 200g going uphill.

    YMMV
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  12. #12
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    100 grams between 2 skis is not a lot of weight

    How well the ski was built might make more difference

    or why there is a big discrepancy between 2 skis
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    100 grams between 2 skis is not a lot of weight

    How well the ski was built might make more difference

    or why there is a big discrepancy between 2 skis
    He's suggesting 100g per ski.

    The real issue is that you often pay a little more to save a little weight.... so if you didn't save the weight it's tough to be OK with the extra costs.

    But yeah it depends what you want.
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samski360 View Post

    Interestingly, I just picked up some ATK freeraider 14s and those weight in at the published weight almost to the gram. Obviously much lighter than a ski, so a weight deviation as a percentage would be greater, but impressive nonetheless.
    As has been noted in this thread, there are a myriad of factors that can lead to this sort of discrepancy. Personally, I'm usually ready for a ski to be 150ish grams off in either direction from stated weights, just because brands make small changes to the construction without letting the public know all the time.

    I have found that binding weights are more consistent, which makes sense, if you've got major weight discrepancies in a product that's being machined from aluminum or assembled from injection molded plastic, something wild is going on. Whereas, when you've got a human mixing epoxy, laying up skis, and manually cutting out and finishing tips and tails, there are just a lot more steps where discrepancies can occur.

    That said, I wouldn't worry about it with these skis. An extra hundred grams on a 1400 gram ski is a lot more noticeable than on a 2000g ski in my experience. And with the Freeraiders you're saving almost 200g over mounting the same skis with, say, Vipecs anyway.

  15. #15
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    Worrying about 100g is the ken of cringe skimo nerds like me and benneke. You bought a 2000g ski and it came in a 2100. I have zero doubt you will not notice.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samski360 View Post
    I mean I guess it depends on what you’re comparing to. In my mind the 2000g ski was heavier than any other ski I would consider, given then alternatives. but I chose it because I really liked how the ski performed. It’s not hard to find other similar skis that are in the 1700g weight range with similar dimensions. So when these skis showed up over 100g heavier than my “limit” the comparison isn’t necessarily to the 2000g ski, but to the skis that are 300-400g less (published weight). The question is if the performance benefits justify a difference of 400g.

    Is there an actual difference? I dunno. I guess everyone draws a line in the sand somewhere.
    I get where you are coming from but maybe look at the possible solution a little different. So you have 2100 gram skis, do you think you would notice a difference if you found a pair that weighed 2060 grams each?

    All that aside I wish the marketing department didn't have the final say in these situations.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

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  17. #17
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    This question comes up periodically in tech talk. The correct unit is %, not grams. As a very general and approximate rule for multi component manufactured items, 5% variability should embrace 2 or 3 sigma distribution.

    In other words, if you randomly selected 100 skis, and they all weigh within 5% of the nominal Ďaverageí, with a handful (say, 2 or 3 skis) at the +5% edge, thatís a pretty reasonable distribution. You just got unlucky and happened to get 2 at the heavier end of the normal range.

    Variations can come from all ingredients and may not result in an actual stiffness difference.
    Improve your AT boots with the StrapOff. Itís Maggot Approved.

  18. #18
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    Ski weight variability

    To be clear, the skis are still in the shrink wrap so if I were bringing them back, it would really just be to see if I could shave 100g for zero dollars and everyone is happy.

    But Iíll probably just run what I brung and do a couple extra of those Johnny Collinson workouts. 100g extra on the skis plus those workouts will finally let me give my wife the quads sheís always wanted.
    Last edited by Samski360; 01-18-2022 at 01:00 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    In other words, if you randomly selected 100 skis, and they all weigh within 5% of the nominal Ďaverageí, with a handful (say, 2 or 3 skis) at the +5% edge, thatís a pretty reasonable distribution. You just got unlucky and happened to get 2 at the heavier end of the normal range.
    Thatís a good point. And at least the skis are identical in weight (within 3g). It would be more annoying to have a difference of 100g between skis. Or maybe I wouldnít notice and prove a couple people right.

  20. #20
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    Yes, % is the better measure (ie 100 gr is less of a delta on a 2000 vs 1400 ski), but if you're touring a bunch on em and are concerned re weight, then I'd try to swap em out for a lighter pair. If the shop has a lighter pair in stock, then easy enough. Not an a-hole move at all

  21. #21
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    I just got a pair of skis this year that I measured to have a 100gm difference from one to the other (out of ~1900gm each). They also had visibly different camber. I can't tell a difference between the two when I ski them, the imbalance between my two different knees is a much bigger factor than the difference in the skis.

  22. #22
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    I used to do some beer drinking with a skifishbum-esque character who as a carpenter knew a lot about layout

    he pointed out something interesting, put skis side by each, running a pencil between them til it stops at the edge intersection, swap the skis and do the same thing with the pencil will tell you how far out of spec they are edge to edge

    is any ski company going to gie you a new ski due to weight and is the next one they send gona be any
    better ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason4 View Post
    I just got a pair of skis this year that I measured to have a 100gm difference from one to the other (out of ~1900gm each). They also had visibly different camber. I can't tell a difference between the two when I ski them, the imbalance between my two different knees is a much bigger factor than the difference in the skis.
    I just went by the shop, mostly out of curiosity. The other 184 Atris they had on the floor were 100g different. One was about slightly over 2100g, one was just over 2000g. Holding one in each hand I couldnít tell the difference. So similar to what youíre describing.

    Going to mount them and ski them and forget about it.

  24. #24
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    ^^^ Well, worth a swing by the shop. Presumably they were cool and woulda swapped you your in plastic 2100's if they had a pair of equal 2000's?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tang View Post
    ^^^ Well, worth a swing by the shop. Presumably they were cool and woulda swapped you your in plastic 2100's if they had a pair of equal 2000's?
    The shop was reasonably busy and I didnít want to take employee time from actually selling new skis so I just walked in with my digital scale and weighed them on the shop floor. Not the most scientific process but I zeroed and reweighed each ski 3x so I think the actual weight was pretty accurate.

    I have no doubt that most shops would allow a straight exchange for new skis purchased from the shop, especially if itís in the return period.

    I may start bringing the scale in before I buy the skis when weight is a concern. If I were choosing a ski largely on weight vs. overall performance, Iíd be more annoyed by the skis being 100g overweight (a la the MTN issue described above).

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