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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
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    76

    New skis, bases not quite flat

    Some new Rustler 10 daily drivers just arrived.

    I checked with a steel straight edge and underfoot the bases are flat, but near the rocker, the bases are slightly convex/edge high.

    The convexity is about 0.10mm, which is probably in-spec. But would you do anything? Or is this about the best it will ever get anyway?
    FWIW, I will not worry about this once I'm skiing on them, unless they really suck.

    Here's a pic for the idea, but the light distorts the image anyway. IRL the space is wider and the ruler's edge is straight. This kind of makes it look better than it is.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    237
    If it doesn't feel you're unable to turn while skiing, just let it be and don't think about it anymore.

    I had new skis once that were edge high. It's very obvious once you're skiing whether it's a problem and needs to be ground flat, or not.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    254
    An edge high ski like that will be harder to pivot, slower edge to edge and feel heavier. Lots of people on a ski like that would “detune the tips and tails” sacrificing edge grip but if you flatten the base and you can run the ski sharp without issue. Yours wouldn’t need that many passes on a stone grinder to be much better.

    Unfortunately, it’s very common and there’s only a handful of new skis that I’ve bought that haven’t needed a stone grind from the factory. Just had a brand new pair of Volkl Deacon 72 Masters carving skis that were very base high(so the opposite of yours) that felt like I was skiing on marbles. After a stone grind and edge angle reset they are great now.
    If you have ski tuning gear, just get a stone grind for $20 or so and hand tune the edges and hot wax yourself. If not, get a full tune which will include a stone grind and tell the tech about the skis being edge high so they are sure to make them flat.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Aspen
    Posts
    2,050
    Funny, running into (possibly?) this same issue on my wife new pair of 2021 Atris 178cm.

    She feel like the ski feels heavy and stiff on snow, is hard to control and throws her around and into turns. She's taken it to our shop for two sets of tip/tail detuning, but she doesn't think they've actually done it (she suspects they just resharpened the edge both times...) or that what they've done has had a difference .

    My question is: what is the best next step? Is a base grind capable to "reset" everything? Should it go through the competitors shop's fancy Wintersteiger Scout?

    They're replacing 2015 Atris 178's that she loves and has ~300 days on. Blackcrows press copy says her new version of the ski is *slightly* stiffer and the radius has grown from 18m to 20m, but the feedback she's giving is making it sound like it's an entirely different ski. The old ski is probably pretty beat and not very stiff, but she shouldn't be getting manhandled by the new one. My guess is something tune or construction-related is whack. WWMD??

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,593
    Stone grind

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sun Valley, ID
    Posts
    2,175
    Allot of modern skis that are wider with tip rocker and different tip designs to lighten weight seem to have this. You can grind for sure. If it’s a bit grabby I tend to just de tune as the amount of grip you are getting there doesn’t really matter on a 100mm ski… I’m now in the habit of detuning skis to 1-2cm past contact point with a coarse stone before I ski them.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    45
    I recently got a true bar from tognar and checked the flatness on my 3 skis, never base ground. Like OP, they all seemed flat underfoot along the camber section, but some were edge high in the tips/tails along the rocker section. Don't recall them being as 'bad' as OP's, and they were fairly up along the rocker length that I wasn't bothered by it. Never noticed anything off either. Totally not an engineer here, but I figured the rocker section where it was edge high wasn't load bearing so it wouldn't be an issue even in soft 3D snow, especially for how high up on the rocker it was.

    EDIT: I guess it's worth mentioning all my skis are over 100 in the waist

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    4,397
    Just mounted some old (but new) Dynastar exclusive pro’s for the wife. One ski was dead flat the other incredibly base high. I can’t remember a ski that didn’t need a grind


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Sierra Foothills
    Posts
    596
    If it's really only 100 microns I'd just ski. I certainty wouldn't stone grind new skis for this.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    254
    Quote Originally Posted by alpinevibes View Post
    Funny, running into (possibly?) this same issue on my wife new pair of 2021 Atris 178cm.

    She feel like the ski feels heavy and stiff on snow, is hard to control and throws her around and into turns. She's taken it to our shop for two sets of tip/tail detuning, but she doesn't think they've actually done it (she suspects they just resharpened the edge both times...) or that what they've done has had a difference .

    My question is: what is the best next step? Is a base grind capable to "reset" everything? Should it go through the competitors shop's fancy Wintersteiger Scout?

    They're replacing 2015 Atris 178's that she loves and has ~300 days on. Blackcrows press copy says her new version of the ski is *slightly* stiffer and the radius has grown from 18m to 20m, but the feedback she's giving is making it sound like it's an entirely different ski. The old ski is probably pretty beat and not very stiff, but she shouldn't be getting manhandled by the new one. My guess is something tune or construction-related is whack. WWMD??
    Always trust your gut if something feels off in a ski so I don’t doubt there are tuning issues on the new skis. Base is not flat by the sounds of it and the base bevels might not be uniform tip to tail. Also will be grabby if the base bevel is more aggressive(ie-0.5 vs the spec’d 1 degrees) especially near the tips/tails.
    A shop saying they will “detune the tips/tails” rather than checking base flatness and edge angles first is a huge red flag. I’d be going next door to the Wintersteiger place and let them know your wives descriptions of the ski. They will stone grind the ski flat, add structure to the base as well as resetting the base and side edge angles. The only edge smoothing is above the widest taper points on the tip/tail on that ski.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    76
    Let's say I ski them for a day (will be snowbird).
    I decide they need a grind.

    Now when I was a tech a long time ago, this is where a lot could go wrong.

    Two big questions:
    -Can you get the bases flatter than 0.1MM / will this just make it worse?
    -What's the chance of getting a clean factory bevel back on the edge these days?

    I've tuned everything by hand for years, but if I go the grind route, I would just want to make it all happen at one time.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    26,601
    I have some BD Verdicts that were concave like that tip to tail with a lot of negative camber and they would spit you off if you made any misteaks

    A stone grind and dulling the tails 10cm made a big difference,

    doing that much filing by hand would have been a big job and not as perfect as the stone grind on a computerized stone grind M/C

    get the stone grind
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,593
    Bases don't need to be 100% flat..
    You'll know pretty quick,
    Really you just want the edge to engage when YOU tell it to.
    In reality, resetting the edge bevel may be all you need.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    … let them know your wives descriptions of the ski
    May want to keep the multiple wives thing to yourself… unless you’re in Utah

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Only a little late
    Posts
    3,897
    Quote Originally Posted by RollGybe View Post
    Let's say I ski them for a day (will be snowbird).
    I decide they need a grind.

    Now when I was a tech a long time ago, this is where a lot could go wrong.

    Two big questions:
    -Can you get the bases flatter than 0.1MM / will this just make it worse?
    -What's the chance of getting a clean factory bevel back on the edge these days?

    I've tuned everything by hand for years, but if I go the grind route, I would just want to make it all happen at one time.
    Get them ground; a good shop with a good machine is unlikely to make the bases worse. You'll also get the benefit of having a structure superior to that of the factory standard.
    "somebody's gotta do it"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by RollGybe View Post
    Let's say I ski them for a day (will be snowbird).
    I decide they need a grind.

    Now when I was a tech a long time ago, this is where a lot could go wrong.

    Two big questions:
    -Can you get the bases flatter than 0.1MM / will this just make it worse?
    -What's the chance of getting a clean factory bevel back on the edge these days?

    I've tuned everything by hand for years, but if I go the grind route, I would just want to make it all happen at one time.
    Factory bevels aren’t always great anyway. Competent tech should be able to make it better than new, but not all techs are competent.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    26,601
    the guys at the shop I went to were idiots cuz they forgot to load the Montana Saphir M/C twice

    When they finaly got em loaded and pushed the start button I had perfect skis in about 15min
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    8,476
    They really only need to be flat about a cm in from the edge. Being a little concave is fine. Taking them down 100% flat makes the ptex thinner and the edges thinner. Greatly shortens the life of your ski.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Fernie and/or Smithers
    Posts
    1,362
    Worth getting flattened IMO.

    Do any skis come from the factory with a skiable base edge bevel?!? I’d guess lots of new skis come flat…
    Getting a simple .5-.75 edge bevel will change many peoples lives. Flat base edges are not fun in my experience.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    840
    Splitting hairs but a good shop might not "stone" grind them first although they should/will belt grind them. Edge-high skis will chew up or groove the stone and they'll have to reset it, which they won't want to do.

    I'd have them belt then stone grind them. Once isn't going to greatly diminish the life of the skis, and they'll ski better. Even a generic structure off of the stone will make them ski better.

    And, although it's a different process or even a different machine, having them wintersteiger your edges at your preferred angles is also nice.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
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    8,476
    Quote Originally Posted by hafjell View Post

    I'd have them belt then stone grind them. Once isn't going to greatly diminish the life of the skis, and they'll ski better. Even a generic structure off of the stone will make them ski better.
    I'm going to respectfully disagree. Here's how much edge steel and base that has to be belt sanded down to make them flat.. then a little more edge to make them .5 I'd just make sure the 1cm to ends are flat. Leave that gully in the middle.. too much base has to go to make it flat.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    26,601
    what are these skis made of ? My BD's were foam core made in the Atomic factory and apparently alot of them came heavily concave

    should these go back?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,593
    Edges are ground/beveled before a ski ever comes close to a diamond dressed stone

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,593
    Just buy an edge guide and reset your own bevels.
    If they ski like shit after that, grind 'em.
    IMO, a good tech on a non automated machine can give you a better tune than a machine that just pops 'em out the ass end of the machine dun.
    I used to hand tune everything before final finish passes--no ceramic disc/ belt marks on the edge.

  25. #25
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    Sep 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    I'm going to respectfully disagree. Here's how much edge steel and base that has to be belt sanded down to make them flat.. then a little more edge to make them .5 I'd just make sure the 1cm to ends are flat. Leave that gully in the middle.. too much base has to go to make it flat.
    Unless you're racing and sharpening your edges constantly with a file (not diamond stone,) once they're done properly, they should be good for a long while. We dealt with this question a lot in the shop and it's EXTREMELY rare for somebody to take their edges to zero. Non racers almost never ever.

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