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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutah View Post
    I agree with this. Furthermore, while I think Stevens pass may be the worst and most glaring example, it doesn't seem like Vail's issues are isolated to SP. It seems like locals at other Vail owned locations are equally dissatisfied with Vail's subpar product this year. If I had an epic pass, I would be pissed to hear that Stevens pass locals were getting such a steep discount next yr while other epic pass holders who also received a diminished product at other resorts were getting nothing.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    What they are doing at their Ohio resorts is an awful game of bait and switch. 50% or more reduction in hours at several of their resorts. Pretty big deal in an already short and unreliable season. Locals are furious, and rightly so.

  2. #227
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    For Skiers, a Winter of Discontent https://nyti.ms/3nZcj1z

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  3. #228
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    Vail fail aka stevens pass wtf?

    New Tom only sent letters to Steven’s “Local” product pass holders.

    Mentioning Covid and Omicron at this point in the game is utter bullshit IMO. Every business in the country is feeling this squeeze, Vail is simply using it as an excuse for a horrible service level.

    If anything the pandemic staffing issues have drawn the curtain back on their predatory business practices and I hope they get fucked.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by counterfeitfake View Post
    Yeah, there should be. It's useful to zoom out for a moment, this is a problem created by allowing a giant corporation to control local public resources. Through all the layers of bureaucracy, the FS is supposedly accountable to us. I'm surprised I have never heard of anybody on this board who has worked for or with the FS who could provide more context and information. Maybe I should go back and read that "starting a ski area on FS land" thread more closely.
    ding, ding. Vail answers to us because they are using our land. The forest service is the sold out, unaccountable, government entity that is allowing this massive monopolization of a billion-dollar industry to occur. It is a crime both morally and by the letter of the law. There are 3 ways to stop this shit:

    1. The Government goes after them via an anti-trust lawsuit. This won't happen because in late-stage capitalism the government entities that are supposed to regulate are actually wholly owned subsidiaries of these very same industries. The Forest Service is rank incompetent, scared, and totally sold out.

    2. A boycott. This would be like herding cats. The higher end of the ski crowd are rich and love corporations. The "ski Bum" crowd is disappearing, lacks organization, and is perceived as meaningless and even harmful from a revenue standpoint.

    3. Create competition and beat them. The Forest Service, the Sierra Club, and a general malaise are the impediments to this.

    My best advice, book a ticket to Europe.....

    Forest Service thread: starting a ski area on Forest Service land (tetongravity.com)
    Last edited by dunderhead; 01-27-2022 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #230
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    My friend had a decent theory about why Vail is having such a hard time finding staff this year. He thinks that before Epic and Ikon getting a free pass was actually a compelling reason to bump chairs or wash dishes, but now the passes are cheap enough that people with minimum wage jobs can afford them. This season's 20% price cut might have tipped the balance a little too far over.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    Except that credit likely won't apply to alcoholic beverages. I would bet on it.
    I don't see how it could, can you imagine what would happen?
    that's all i can think of, but i'm sure there's something else...

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    My friend had a decent theory about why Vail is having such a hard time finding staff this year. He thinks that before Epic and Ikon getting a free pass was actually a compelling reason to bump chairs or wash dishes, but now the passes are cheap enough that people with minimum wage jobs can afford them. This season's 20% price cut might have tipped the balance a little too far over.
    I've been saying this since the passes started. When you combine the low value of a pass with wages that are only equal or often less than less demanding jobs in town, it becomes a much harder sell.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    My friend had a decent theory about why Vail is having such a hard time finding staff this year. He thinks that before Epic and Ikon getting a free pass was actually a compelling reason to bump chairs or wash dishes, but now the passes are cheap enough that people with minimum wage jobs can afford them. This season's 20% price cut might have tipped the balance a little too far over.
    I've actually heard ski area GMs make that same argument this fall.

    I think it was a perfect storm that got us to this point... Less J1 visas (Vail heavily relies on them, probably cause they can pay em less), record sales of cheap mega passes, working class demanding higher wages and better benefits (which ski resorts have never really offered, "you want benefits? It's called a ski pass and a discount on food"), coupled with poor management and being over stretched since they got too big to properly manage all their resorts.....

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  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutah View Post
    I've actually heard ski area GMs make that same argument this fall.

    I think it was a perfect storm that got us to this point... Less J1 visas (Vail heavily relies on them, probably cause they can pay em less), record sales of cheap mega passes, working class demanding higher wages and better benefits (which ski resorts have never really offered, "you want benefits? It's called a ski pass and a discount on food"), coupled with poor management and being over stretched since they got too big to properly manage all their resorts.....

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    You say perfect storm. I say long chain of considered, greedy, shortsighted, bad management decisions logically coming home to roost. This was no storm that hit Vail resorts, it was greedy, considered mismanagement resulting in easily foreseeable consequences.

  10. #235
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    Stop buying the Epic (and Ikon for that matter).

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    You say perfect storm. I say long chain of considered, greedy, shortsighted, bad management decisions logically coming home to roost. This was no storm that hit Vail resorts, it was greedy, considered mismanagement resulting in easily foreseeable consequences.
    Complex system theory states the more complex the system the more likely it is to collapse and in spectacular fasion. The mega resorts are reliant on so many complex variables, when it goes bad it goes bad big. These places will only be more expensive and difficult to operate and staff. With luck, the end of this paradigm and consolidation within the industry will end. Harkening in a return to lower overhead, more localized, and more affordable ski areas. The old model is better than the new one anyways. A couple of unbreakable low speed chairs, a day lodge, and a snowcat. For example, nothing is stupider, more inefficient, and expensive than snowmaking. We pay for that shit and for what? So some corporate tool can make profit at Thanksgiving rather than just wait till it snows for real. Our pass prices go up so that some shitty, dumb, glaze ice garbage exists? Same goes for schwanky lodges, the techiest grooming, high speed heated 6 seaters that just break, and the lot.

    Bigger, faster, and fancier is not better and just like their dumb business model, it all just fucking breaks in the end.
    Our double chair never goes down and if it does, one mechanic shows up with a wrench and some WD40 and fixes the fkn thing.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    My friend had a decent theory about why Vail is having such a hard time finding staff this year. He thinks that before Epic and Ikon getting a free pass was actually a compelling reason to bump chairs or wash dishes, but now the passes are cheap enough that people with minimum wage jobs can afford them. This season's 20% price cut might have tipped the balance a little too far over.
    Blame the poor. Genius.

    Plug and play scapegoat scenario for many of society’s problems.


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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Blame the poor. Genius.

    Plug and play scapegoat scenario for many of society’s problems.


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    WTF, you read that as him blaming the poor? Asinine take.
    If anything he's blaming the resorts (corps) for making the passes so cheap. The biggest incentive to working in the mountains was a free riding.
    Pre mega-pass, season passes around here were over $1,000 at a time when day tix where $70-80. You'd be looking at 15-20 days to pay itself. Now with $150-200 weekend day tickets, and season passes sub $800 that pay for themselves in 4-5 visits, the free pass incentive that draws workers in is gone.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishskisurf View Post
    WTF, you read that as him blaming the poor? Asinine take.
    If anything he's blaming the resorts (corps) for making the passes so cheap.
    Pre megapass, season passes around here were over $1,000 at a time when day tix where $70-80. Now with $150-200 weekend day tickets, and season passes sub $800 that pay for themselves in 4-5 visits, the free pass incentive that draws workers in is gone.
    The people who couldn’t afford the passes in the past had to work like indentured servants to get a free pass.

    Now those people can afford the passes and won’t take the jobs.

    Pretty easy to comprehend, what is asinine about that?


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  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Blame the poor. Genius.

    Plug and play scapegoat scenario for many of society’s problems.


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    I thought he is blaming HR.
    Who could fit perfectly into that last sentence.

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishskisurf View Post
    Stop buying the Epic (and Ikon for that matter).
    I will never stop going to Whistler, and therefore helping to line Vail's pockets. I'm sorry, I just can't let go. And they know it.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    My friend had a decent theory about why Vail is having such a hard time finding staff this year. He thinks that before Epic and Ikon getting a free pass was actually a compelling reason to bump chairs or wash dishes, but now the passes are cheap enough that people with minimum wage jobs can afford them. This season's 20% price cut might have tipped the balance a little too far over.
    There's another thing that's popped up a few times on my radar. Vail has been very clueless and arrogant when dealing with their people who always worked for nothing but expected, at least, a few perks to compensate. The Hunter mountain patrol in NY had an informal, or maybe formal, sort of agreement with previous owners that they get family passes and cheap food and a few other crumbs. The fleece vest Vail managers fly in and put the end to all that, no discussion. Not good for morale. I think I read in the NYT article above that little shit at Stevens, but, I'm guessing everywhere in the old world, is being erased, like skiing on your break. I mean, imagine white guy with the corporate haircut doing that to you without any compensation. Then they go on a super cost cutting campaign everywhere, because they spent way too much aquiring hills the last five years. So, yeah, why would you want to work for that when even fast food pays better, and it's warm.

    Everyone should listen to the Rob Katz interview I posted above and elsewhere. It tells you a lot about the man who has been boss through all this, and he still has enough power to elbow the new CEO out of the way to do happy talk PR. That podcast has also interviewed a few other Vail higher ups, and they all sound like the worst unimaginative corporate nothings. But, I'll bet they're paid well.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishskisurf View Post
    WTF, you read that as him blaming the poor? Asinine take.
    If anything he's blaming the resorts (corps) for making the passes so cheap. The biggest incentive to working in the mountains was a free riding.
    Pre mega-pass, season passes around here were over $1,000 at a time when day tix where $70-80. You'd be looking at 15-20 days to pay itself. Now with $150-200 weekend day tickets, and season passes sub $800 that pay for themselves in 4-5 visits, the free pass incentive that draws workers in is gone.
    Yes, definitely blaming the employer, not the employees. If you can't pay your employees well enough and/or give them enough benefits to retain them, that's on you.

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    I will never stop going to Whistler, and therefore helping to line Vail's pockets. I'm sorry, I just can't let go. And they know it.
    WB has also managed to convince the local and regional governments to protect their monopoly and oppose other ski area development in the corridor, so we're kinda stuck with Vail unfortunately, and they fuckin know it. I wish there was a competitor in the area.

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.odd View Post
    WB has also managed to convince the local and regional governments to protect their monopoly and oppose other ski area development in the corridor, so we're kinda stuck with Vail unfortunately, and they fuckin know it. I wish there was a competitor in the area.
    Wasn't it local Native Bands that came out against ski resort development at Cayuse near Pemberton, several years ago? B.C Provincial governments have mostly been in favour of ski resort deveolpment, while enviro groups generally oppose development which us why expanding existing ski areas gets more support than new development.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    Wasn't it local Native Bands that came out against ski resort development at Cayuse near Pemberton, several years ago? B.C Provincial governments have mostly been in favour of ski resort deveolpment, while enviro groups generally oppose development which us why expanding existing ski areas gets more support than new development.
    Yup, but more recently (currently) they're (WB/RMOW/DOS/SLRD) not in support of Garibaldi at Squamish (right resort for the right place questions notwithstanding) even though it is supported by the Squamish Nation. There's huge demand for skiing in the corridor, and a million + new residents expected in the next 15-20 years, WB won't be able to support that without significant expansion.

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.odd View Post
    Yup, but more recently (currently) they're (WB/RMOW/DOS/SLRD) not in support of Garibaldi at Squamish (right resort for the right place questions notwithstanding) even though it is supported by the Squamish Nation. There's huge demand for skiing in the corridor, and a million + new residents expected in the next 15-20 years, WB won't be able to support that without significant expansion.
    Ugh... just think of the base upload situation if that happens. Where else could they put a lift from the bottom?

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    Ugh... just think of the base upload situation if that happens. Where else could they put a lift from the bottom?
    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/fa...-_whistler.pdf

    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/fa...ment_sites.pdf

    my gut feeling is that if the Nations decide to push an Olympic bid, this is going to be a part of it and they'll probably get a bunch of the development rights.

  24. #249
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    Their "offering" sounds about equal to the costs they avoided by not running / staffing a significant number of advertised and available lifts. No need to patrol that 60% of the terrain not open too. They don't intend to lose a nickel with their restitution plan which is why something more would be just. No getting around this fact, they suck and if they can't run a resort properly, need to depart. Stevens will never be what it was but the potential is there. Don't think Vail has the ability but they sure can cook up PR and throw sweet nothings around.

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.odd View Post
    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/fa...-_whistler.pdf

    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/fa...ment_sites.pdf

    my gut feeling is that if the Nations decide to push an Olympic bid, this is going to be a part of it and they'll probably get a bunch of the development rights.
    I'll bet that new Cheakamus base gets built sooner than later. Lots of complaints about the traffic situation through Whistler and this would help substantially.

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