Vail fail aka stevens pass wtf?

**::: :::** · 01-01-2022, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by altasnob

Think of the Forest Service as the trustee of the public's trust (the land). The trustee always has a fiduciary duty to manage the trust properly. A similar situation could occur at a campground where the National Forest uses a private concessionaire to manage (very common). What if the concessionaire is widely hated by the public. I couldn't imagine the Forest Service throwing up their hands and continue to grant contracts to the maligned concessionaire.

Like I said, this would be unprecedented. But the situation at Stevens is a situation we haven't encountered. As I see it, some MBA dipshit working for Vail has crunched the numbers and decided they make more money selling Epic passes and not running Stevens at all. This is because so many in Seattle buy Epic primarily for access to Whistler, with Stevens just gravy. Vail is just cutting off the gravy but people still buy for the main dish (and where Vail is making the big bucks).

It would have to be an egregious issue, widely hated isn’t enough for playing the heavy in a situation that seems to be perfectly legal, despite being despicable

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 01-01-2022, 01:52 PM

For all the bitching about Stevens, if you look at the pass cam on WSDOT, it looks like a busy day with full lots up there.

I think the big issue that posters here are missing is that most people that go skiing at places like Stevens aren’t skiers or boarders. They just want to show up and be part of the scene

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**The AD** · 01-01-2022, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

For all the bitching about Stevens, if you look at the pass cam on WSDOT, it looks like a busy day with full lots up there.

I think the big issue that posters here are missing is that most people that go skiing at places like Stevens aren’t skiers or boarders. They just want to show up and be part of the scene

There's lots of people who bought Epic Passes and want to actually use them.

**AdironRider** · 01-01-2022, 02:19 PM

Sure there are some, but they are but a tiny minority. The average skier still only goes a handful of times a year, and spends majority of that time eating and drinking in the lodge. If they didn't, the pass prices would be higher.

Yet somehow, it appears Vail is going to screw this up because basically everyone I know with an Epic pass is basically at the "fuck it this isn't worth it" stage of things. They might have 1.5 billion in cash, but I'd wager they are going to need it to stay afloat at some point in the future.

There are but a handful of corps that have stood the test of time. Very few in such a luxury industry like skiing. Like with any other failure, it will be the direct result of their own hubris.

**toast2266** · 01-01-2022, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by ::: :::

It would have to be an egregious issue, widely hated isn’t enough for playing the heavy in a situation that seems to be perfectly legal, despite being despicable

In other words, government regulation / intervention isn't going to provide the answer.

But Vail is getting clobbered on pretty much every ski related online venue. Some of the reddit threads bitching about it are the biggest I've ever seen on the skiing subreddit. That sort of thing doesn't go unnoticed, and it'll start affecting the bottom line. Which is all Vail really cares about.

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 01-01-2022, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by The AD

There's lots of people who bought Epic Passes and want to actually use them.

I’m sure that’s true, but most people just stand around clogging up the base area and parking but really aren’t the same users as the posters on this forum.

I’m not defending Vail. If most people aren’t going to stop going, Vail will continue on this course.

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**The AD** · 01-01-2022, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by AdironRider

Sure there are some, but they are but a tiny minority. The average skier still only goes a handful of times a year, and spends majority of that time eating and drinking in the lodge.

Maybe at a place like Vail or Breck, but not so much Stevens. I think if you're going to bother driving there you're probably actually going to do some snow riding. It's not like the off-mountain activities are jumping.

**dunderhead** · 01-01-2022, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Please provide examples. Hell, a single example aside from, "I don't like how things are being run".

Oh and BTW I checked with friends on the PCPSP, there are no PCMR patrollers helping SP out.

If they are so incompetent to the point that 50% of the mountain is closed, then they are not fulfilling their legal obligation to provide access to our land. As well, since Vail is ass hole-ish, most their experienced Patrollers quit or got fired which would draw a very direct line to their legal obligation to provide the safest user experience. The price of day tickets is prohibitively expensive therefore not fulfilling the forest service's own mission statement of providing accessible recreation to the public. And on and on and on. The real question Bunion is what obligations of their special use permit are they actually fulfilling? not many is the answer. The thing that makes this forum so great is the diverse voices and great back and forth. So, it is good to have a full-throated voice like Bunion's in support of Vail and Boyne and hear that side.

**UrMomsKneePads** · 01-01-2022, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

I’m sure that’s true, but most people just stand around clogging up the base area and parking but really aren’t the same users as the posters on this forum.

I’m not defending Vail. If most people aren’t going to stop going, Vail will continue on this course.

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Your statement is probably true. We tend to get our monies worth (two kids age 9 and 11 that ski the whole mountain with me). Already hit Keystone, Vail, and Breck, got 6 days in this week. We'll do 25-30 days at our local PA hill. Also have a week at Whistler and a long weekend at Mount Snow planned for Feb/March.

So we'll get 40-50 days in. It does piss me off to spend airfare for 4, rental car, a ski-in/ski-out condo for the week, pricey meals and then not have the mountain open in said destination. It's not right. I know, first class problems. But they're still not delivering on the product we paid for. And they don't give a F. Until some of us start voting with our wallets they'll continue the course.

**phatty** · 01-01-2022, 07:24 PM

Great article on Stevens situation from Everett Herald. Not much new, but they do a great job laying it all out.

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/at-st...taff-shortage/

**tmokes** · 01-01-2022, 07:50 PM

People say veil sucks but it’s Covid-19 outbreak that’s causing this issue. For decades, corporate ski resorts have relied on seasonal workers from Southern Hemisphere and issuing visas. Well, the pandemic put a wrench in that formula and now we are struggling to find some locals to do the work for cheap. It worked out because $14/hr was a good wage for immigrants. Ski resorts can’t pay “affordable wage” to the locals living in the mountain resort town. Lifties are not going to be able to afford the log cabin in mountain resort towns. I’m sure the solution to this problem isn’t simply to just pay people more. If the resort paid crap ton of money to unskilled labor, that’s going to create labor shortage in other business around the resort and some say those businesses are more essential to the community in small mountain town.

I don’t have any answers but I’m glad I left Seattle when I did.

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**phatty** · 01-01-2022, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by tmokes

People say veil sucks but it’s Covid-19 outbreak that’s causing this issue. For decades, corporate ski resorts have relied on seasonal workers from Southern Hemisphere and issuing visas. Well, the pandemic put a wrench in that formula and now we are struggling to find some locals to do the work for cheap. It worked out because $14/hr was a good wage for immigrants. Ski resorts can’t pay “affordable wage” to the locals living in the mountain resort town. Lifties are not going to be able to afford the log cabin in mountain resort towns. I’m sure the solution to this problem isn’t simply to just pay people more. If the resort paid crap ton of money to unskilled labor, that’s going to create labor shortage in other business around the resort and some say those businesses are more essential to the community in small mountain town.

I don’t have any answers but I’m glad I left Seattle when I did.

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Vail does suck, but you nail it on the employee visas. Snoqualmie has the same issue, but it's hurting Vail most. While I think a "livable wage" is unrealistic, $15/hr is going to be tough to get people for. Especially as the pass benefit isn't what it used to be. It was a big deal when passes were $1k+. When you make them $600, it's not as much a benefit for the employee.

**TheSilverSurfer** · 01-01-2022, 08:15 PM

Capitalism is the problem, not Covid. Covid has exposed the dirty underbelly of capitalism. A business that can't pay enough to attract employees without taking advantage of the poor shouldn't be in business.

**NWFlow** · 01-01-2022, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by dunderhead

So, it is good to have a full-throated voice like Bunion's in support of Vail and Boyne and hear that side.

Think you've got the wrong dude, haha

**MakersTeleMark** · 01-01-2022, 08:41 PM

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/eagle...-to-community/

**teletech** · 01-01-2022, 09:47 PM

There is seven ski areas within 45 minutes of where I live. Two are epic. The other five are not and operating normal. Of the 2 epic ones wildcat used to have all locals working there, the other attitash relies on a lot of j1s. Both are severely understaffed.
The other non epic ski area that relies on j1s is fully staffed with them. How is the non epic resort recruiting so many more foreign workers?
Wildcat used to recruit locals from Berlin area in nh. You can still get cheap lodging (old mill town) McDonald’s is paying $15, gas stations are paying $15. Snowmakers start at $13 at wildcat and require you to get vaccinated. I think that is a big turnoff for a 20 somethings. When everybody in town pays better, gives year round work, it’s warm and you don’t have corporate rules that suck the fun out the job. It makes it hard to find employees. If you took all the snow reports of all the ski mountains in nh, you could immediately tell Which ones are epic. They are the ones with half the lifts and a quarter of the trails open. Blame it on covid if you want but I’m blaming it on vail.

**brutah** · 01-01-2022, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by phatty

Vail does suck, but you nail it on the employee visas. Snoqualmie has the same issue, but it's hurting Vail most. While I think a "livable wage" is unrealistic, $15/hr is going to be tough to get people for. Especially as the pass benefit isn't what it used to be. It was a big deal when passes were $1k+. When you make them $600, it's not as much a benefit for the employee.

Finally someone sounds like a ski area GM lol. This is an argument I've heard from the higher ups at ski areas, ie, ski passes are too cheap to incentivize people to work part time to get one.

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**MakersTeleMark** · 01-01-2022, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by brutah

Finally someone sounds like a ski area GM lol. This is an argument I've heard from the higher ups at ski areas, ie, ski passes are too cheap to incentivize people to work part time to get one.

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It's even more funny when merchant passes are blacked out, so local workers are busting balls and can't even ski.

**phatty** · 01-01-2022, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by brutah

Finally someone sounds like a ski area GM lol. This is an argument I've heard from the higher ups at ski areas, ie, ski passes are too cheap to incentivize people to work part time to get one.

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Honestly, it's one of the reasons that I quit. I taught ski lessons for 10 years because I got my pass for free and half price passes and lessons for my family. With 5 kids skiing and in lessons, it saved me thousands every year. As my kids got better and stopped taking lessons, the savings weren't enough for me to drive 45min each way for $10/hr. I have a well paying tech job, so was mostly doing it for fun and to make sure I got up at least a couple days.

I'm sure I'll miss it a bit when I see my old coworkers and classes, but I'll be skiing with my own kids more. Maybe I'll do it again sometime, but not sure.

**tmokes** · 01-02-2022, 01:26 AM

Yeah it’s crazy that company doesn’t offer simple things like line cutting for all employees or employee parking in right up front and say to the public if you want that, come work for us….

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**AdironRider** · 01-02-2022, 01:36 AM

I think the point is Vail is making enough money to pay employees more. Arguing for the return of J1s is corporate welfare and only perpetuates the problem.

**TheSilverSurfer** · 01-02-2022, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by AdironRider

I think the point is Vail is making enough money to pay employees more. Arguing for the return of J1s is corporate welfare and only perpetuates the problem.

Yep

**tmokes** · 01-02-2022, 02:59 AM

So what happens if Stevens pass offers $20/hr? All the locals who work in town gonna quit their job that they worked for years and burn the locals bridge to come bump chairs for next 3-4 months? Then they have to go find something else to do in summer? It’s not that simple. And what does local business do if they loose their workers for corporate veil that can afford to pay $20/hr? Now that diner have to pay $25/hr for a dishwasher to keep the staff? Ski resort jobs were held by ski bums and seasonal workers, some of them were foreigners like agriculture industry. Should the workers get paid more? Sure why not! But that’s not going to solve the problem you guys are bitching about. Almost every industry is hurting for staff and we need to realize that.

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**powdork** · 01-02-2022, 03:32 AM

^seriously???
That's the dumbest thing I ever read. Do you even know what other businesses at Stevens pass would suffer. (hint, there are none) I know the folks in Leavenworth and Wenatchee (which also supports other functioning ski resorts) would probably riot if they heard there might be someone paying more around those parts. In the first place the dishwasher wouldn't have to drive the 35 miles from Leavenworth which is already overpriced (and probably not where they live, more like wenatchee). So no, if the resort was paying lifties $20, a dishwasher 60 miles away wouldn't suddenly require $25
If YOU ever decide to start a business, makes sure it can succeed and pay the the workers a decent wage so that they can afford to have a life. If you can't do that, your business plan is already a failure or more likely another one relying on government handouts to pay the employees for you (while you're bitching about having to pay taxes).

**tmokes** · 01-02-2022, 07:44 AM

It’s clear that you just want someone to pay someone else more and arguing shit because you’re not the one paying. I really don’t give a shit about this situation. People working there are working there for the pay and benefits and people who quit are the ones who wanted more. Time will fix this issue and not some dork telling the corporation what to do. Meanwhile, enjoy what you got.

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