Fuck Vail! Here's how.

[m2711c]

m2711 -

You are the only one who said,
'just for the joy of it' .

it is tfw's Occupation.
He made it work by finding a Life that works for the lifestyle he has chosen.

I have volunteered for thirty years.


This story is not about me ;
it IS about a group of people wanting more pay for seasonal work.

to get more pay, one has to show one's work is worth more than one is being paid.
Wanting to be paid more (ain't) going to get it done.

two bargaining professionals and a Union officer have weighed-in
( anyone who expects medical insurance and PTO for seasonal Work does not live in my world - and the Union life has been Good to the chapter president - good. )

eighteen months - and the proposal is two bucks an hour more.
That's sad.

Ski Patrol is an Occupation for Very few ;
part of the compensation (pay) may be skiing
( tfw's "bonus is Powder' (skiing) )


Kevin in BocaRaton (?) tennis (?)
no.

I don't ever need to see Florida again.


I hope someday you understand,

find your joy.


(gotta) Go !
my ninety-one year young friend is expecting me.

thanks. skiJ

I ain’t reading that mess of a word salad. When you feel like typing English, I’ll be happy to read it.

[doebedoe]

This is become very no-true-scotsman where unless you're a veteran 30+ year patroller at a class A destination who has experience in and out of unions your opinion is shat on. No interest in participating in that.

For those who are keeping tabs, I'm just a lowly 30 day a year patroller at a western resort with a sizeable AC program. I don't have 30 years in because I couldn't start working when I was an infant. My day job is in the snow world but has benefits (so i can live that baller life of a 10 year old minivan, a 1000' house in a so-so neighborhood, and 3 weeks PTO a year.) In a past life, I was a member of a union for season/contingent workers for 4 years. I saw significant benefits both material and cultural from that union compared to my first 2 years in that line of work.

I talk a lot and ski a lot with 20-40 y.o. patrollers while we patrol (and in the bc when we tour, and at the bar) -- most of whom don't have this shiny light in their eyes about the possibility of sticking with it like TFW seems to have through his llustrious career. The material facts on the ground for living and working in ski country are different than they were 20 years ago when most of the vets got established. Many of them are very supportive (or have participated in) are this and similar efforts. (The only one I know as fervently anti-union for patrollers is also anti-vax so frankly I ignore and don't get close enough to talk with him.) Seems to be some generational gaps in this one.

Yes some unions are fucked up. Yes some strikes are illegal. There are also good corporations in this world. That doesn't mean all corporations are good.

I'm out as we've got weather coming in which keeps me busy -- enjoy folks.

[Meadow Skipper]

This is become very no-true-scotsman where unless you're a veteran 30+ year patroller at a class A destination who has experience in and out of unions your opinion is shat on. No interest in participating in that.

For those who are keeping tabs, I'm just a lowly 30 day a year patroller at a western resort with a sizeable AC program. I don't have 30 years in because I couldn't start working when I was an infant. My day job is in the snow world but has benefits (so i can live that baller life of a 10 year old minivan, a 1000' house in a so-so neighborhood, and 3 weeks PTO a year.) In a past life, I was a member of a union for season/contingent workers for 4 years. I saw significant benefits both material and cultural from that union compared to my first 2 years in that line of work.

I talk a lot and ski a lot with 20-40 y.o. patrollers while we patrol (and in the bc when we tour, and at the bar) -- most of whom don't have this shiny light in their eyes the TFW seems to have after his illustrious career. Many of them are very supportive (or have participated in) are this and similar efforts. Seems to be some generational gaps in this one.

Yes some unions are fucked up. Yes some strikes are illegal. There are also good corporations in this world. That doesn't mean all corporations are good.

I'm out as we've got weather coming in which keeps me busy -- enjoy folks.

Well said.

[skiJ]

This is become very no-true-scotsman where unless you're a veteran 30+ year patroller at a class A destination who has experience in and out of unions your opinion is shat on. No interest in participating in that.

For those who are keeping tabs, I'm just a lowly 30 day a year patroller at a western resort with a sizeable AC program. I don't have 30 years in because I couldn't start working when I was an infant. My day job is in the snow world but has benefits (so i can live that baller life of a 10 year old minivan, a 1000' house in a so-so neighborhood, and 3 weeks PTO a year.) In a past life, I was a member of a union for season/contingent workers for 4 years. I saw significant benefits both material and cultural from that union compared to my first 2 years in that line of work.

I talk a lot and ski a lot with 20-40 y.o. patrollers while we patrol (and in the bc when we tour, and at the bar) -- most of whom don't have this shiny light in their eyes about the possibility of sticking with it like TFW seems to have through his llustrious career. The material facts on the ground for living and working in ski country are different than they were 20 years ago when most of the vets got established. Many of them are very supportive (or have participated in) are this and similar efforts. (The only one I know as fervently anti-union for patrollers is also anti-vax so frankly I ignore and don't get close enough to talk with him.) Seems to be some generational gaps in this one.

Yes some unions are fucked up. Yes some strikes are illegal. There are also good corporations in this world. That doesn't mean all corporations are good.

I'm out as we've got weather coming in which keeps me busy -- enjoy folks.

good post

Please Be Safe. skiJ

[altasnob]

Seems to be some generational gaps in this one.

TFW raised his kids in a Salt Lake that was dirt cheap and worked for a resort that, despite being owned by a Texas oil tycoon, was actually a pretty cool owner.

Fast forward to today and Salt Lake is becoming one of the most unaffordable places to live in the US (due to high rent and low wages; thanks to anti-union sentiment there). And a lot of patrollers don't work for cool employers; they work for publicly traded Vail or private equity controlled Alterra.

[zion zig zag]

Edited

[Bunion 2020]

I went to bed and 4-5 more pages got ranted out.

35 years patrolling and 10 years in management, in that 1st 20 years there were a lot of years where I made less than 20K a year, I didn't give a fuck because I was living my dream.

All that past experience is in the past and what worked then doesn't really work now.

There is a lot of good stuff in this thread and some bullshit. So it goes. In this age there are only about 5 areas I would even consider patrolling at, most of the ones that were have been ruined.

In the end most of us agree with 2 things. 1. you need a good patrol to make a good mountain function. 2. Fuck Vail.

[regct]

I'm curious why you think they so clearly aren't? Maybe I missed it in here, in the words of someone else there's been "Too much chatter, not enough clam"

I'd put the snow safety work in the same range as electricians, in that I'm glad the are other people dealing with the touchy aspects.

Buster and some other have a point about unions not being purely positive, but in general I think labor representation is a good thing. And it's the system we have now, do you think patrollers shouldn't be paid more? Or that unionizing isn't the way to do it? Regct's comments about the BS patrol unionization are interesting, they kinda flesh out a bit of the other side that's been alluded to in comments or here. But even then it's hard to tell if it's an opposition to unions or an opposition to better pay and treatment?

Opposition to union being the solution. Obviously people deserve to get paid fairly for the work they are doing and scaled for COL and now inflation. In my opinion, actually in fact, my patrol made huge strides over the last decade. Wage increases, gear allowances, training, PTO, health insurance etc. Our patrollers own homes and drive nice vehicles. Our working conditions are not the same as Stevens Pass.


…….


I’m not going to reply to what’s his face who posted that he has thousands of hours of professional bullshitting under his belt. I researched labor laws and the CWA because my livelihood was at stake and I wanted to be informed about what I was voting on. Not because I made a living doing it. In the process I lost most of my friends and my job standing up for what I believe to be right. I’m not some washed up old pro, this was this year. So spare me the lecture and your solidarity crap.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[regct]

Opposition to union being the solution. Obviously people deserve to get paid fairly for the work they are doing and scaled for COL and now inflation. In my opinion, actually in fact, my patrol made huge strides over the last decade. Wage increases, gear allowances, training, PTO, etc. Our patrollers own homes and drive nice vehicles. Our working conditions are not the same as Stevens Pass.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[MagnificentUnicorn]

m2711 -

You are the only one who said,
'just for the joy of it' .

it is tfw's Occupation.
He made it work by finding a Life that works for the lifestyle he has chosen.

I have volunteered for thirty years.


This story is not about me ;
it IS about a group of people wanting more pay for seasonal work.

to get more pay, one has to show one's work is worth more than one is being paid.
Wanting to be paid more (ain't) going to get it done.

two bargaining professionals and a Union officer have weighed-in
( anyone who expects medical insurance and PTO for seasonal Work does not live in my world - and the Union life has been Good to the chapter president - good. )

eighteen months - and the proposal is two bucks an hour more.
That's sad.

Ski Patrol is an Occupation for Very few ;
part of the compensation (pay) may be skiing
( tfw's "bonus is Powder' (skiing) )


Kevin in BocaRaton (?) tennis (?)
no.

I don't ever need to see Florida again.


I hope someday you understand,

find your joy.


(gotta) Go !
my ninety-one year young friend is expecting me.

thanks. skiJ

Wild land fire fighters working for the feds can get healthcare and comp time in the off season. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

This is an interesting thread with hyperbole and animus from both sides of the union issue. Is the IAFF a bad thing? If you can get an Avalanche Tech job with the DOT and make $46-67k annually with benefits including healthcare and retirement, is it a good or bad thing? I believe they are part of a CBA. Why does the union have to be bad?

There’s lots of nostalgia about the good old days but what has changed in the last 40 years? A lot, it’s a different world and if you want qualified and reliable employees of any kind then management needs to consider how they compensate those employees and what the expectations are to keep the doors open and the customers coming.

It would be nearly impossible to do what tfw has done if you started now as a young patroller.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[zion zig zag]

The union thing kills the band of brothers thing.
No money is worth that loss...

I’m just not sure why you think this? I’ve been in a union for nearly 20 years and I’ve never had a better group of brothers. Including the ones from my time as a pro patroller.

I know you are really opposed to this, but it’s not clear to me why. You keep going back to the ‘I did it just fine, so they can too’ argument. That’s eating the young, and it’s not fair to the next generation of workers. You seem to discount all opinions from outside of your tribe, but in this instance I think the public has an interest in how this plays out, and there are lots of good ideas out there.

So as an ex pro patroller and a current union member, maybe we could talk this through on a ski tour? All problems get solved on a skin track?

[zion zig zag]

Union member here. In fact, Union president. In a dangerous line of work with a lot of cross over to the patrol world. It doesn’t kill the brotherhood, in fact, collective bargaining strengthens it when people step up to make working conditions better for their brothers and sisters. But keep preaching the bonuses of powder and class A avalanche hunting etc. I really dig my excellent health insurance, copious PTO, protection if I get hurt on the job or somebody tries to sue me, minimum safe staffing etc. And I deal minimally with the national labor organizations above me unless I need legal help or negotiation assistance.

Wildland fire and ski patrolling could really benefit from collective bargaining. Hell, even private EMS has finally caught on. Congrats on falling behind AMR in professional development.

Well said.

[snowaddict91]

It would be nearly impossible to do what tfw has done if you started now as a young patroller.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

This is the issue, whether you believe it or not. I ran the numbers through my budget spreadsheet when I lived in SLC in a modest, below median-priced home, and it would have been very hard to make it work on a patroller's salary, and that is with my wife having a Master's. I'm no dirtbag, but I live a fairy modest life, no car payments, etc.

The house I lived in when I ran the numbers in 2019 is now up in value ~180%. No way in hell I could do it now.

[One (+) Sentence]

Now that I've had a beer, I'll say you don't know shit.
Did they use cloth diapers?
Shop at thrift stores?
Not go out to eat?
Not go to concerts, etc?
Grow a lot of their own food?
Drive cars that cost $4,000 or less?
Caretake some rich guys VRBO rental?
The list goes on how to make it work.
We raised a family in employee housing for 20 and care took someone else's place for another 10 years. Kids lived in bunks in a 5'x12' closet for 20 years. No complaints from them to grow up at Snowbird. The savings on rent and utilities were a big part of our success.
Lotta sacrifices, sure.

Biggest difference now is the price of real estate and trying to own a piece of the USA.
Got me on that one with how to make that work these days.
Retired? Not exactly. Just saying I don't need to work.
I still fill in when needed, making class 4 avalanches and skiing powder in closed areas the last ten days. Still enjoying the lifestyle.
One does need to work at some bullshit good paying summer jobs for 10-12 years to get money ahead, least I did.

To be fair, I don’t believe most ski areas (Park City included) have flexible, slope-side, long-term employee housing with spare 5’x12’ closets to raise kids in available.

Your 40+ years of work/life experience in LCC is extremely unique and an example of what makes this canyon such a special place.

[regct]

I also want to get back to my original point which is that this go fund me is a scam.

This guy is using “Fuck Vail” and “Help the ski patrollers” and listing Big Sky, and Park City, and Stevens Pass,to solicit donations to the union from community members who want to support the ski patrol. This go fund me page is a hustle for money. Not to help ski patrollers in need.

Show me one instance of the ski patrol union putting a check in the hands of a ski patroller to put gas in their car or food on their table and I’ll take it back.

If any park city patrollers or any other patrollers are reading this, show me a photo of a ski patroller holding a check from the union. One instance and I’ll take it back.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Canada1]

One of my kids came home this week saying the lines were so bad everyone was chanting F vail and someone broke out a window on one of the restaurants at the base of Tombstone. Seems like the new manager needs to focus on things like getting more than a third of the mountain open with ample snow. He has taken the bar a step lower after the departure of Roc, and that bar was not high. So, give the patrol a $5.00 raise. $18 versus $23 won't break snow.

Of course that kid thinks D.V. is the ultimate management team because they have treated him well, so he'll exaggerate his anti Vail sentiments. From my perspective the experience is declining yearly. It isn't a function of the employees, it is just the growth of the masses. Although I used to be able to get that $5.00 slice even when Talisker was taking over, and now it's 13.00. Progress?

[altasnob]

Show me one instance of the ski patrol union putting a check in the hands of a ski patroller to put gas in their car or food on their table and I’ll take it back.

Breckenridge ski patrol union reaches contract agreement with Vail Resorts

https://www.summitdaily.com/sports/w...-vail-resorts/

[SumJongGuy]

There are lots of things many consider dream jobs.. and many of them do not pay a living wage except to the very best of the best.. or luckiest. I'd put professional musician or actor up there with any on the snow skiing job as a dream job. For those it's the number of loyal customers that support the bargaining power of the performers. Also musicians union can shut Broadway down pretty quickly. Could a big patrol union do that?? Only in non right to work states.
The question here is this.. is the value of the work delivered adequately and fairly compensated for by management/owners of the end product? If you believe yes, then there is no point on discussing any further. If you believe "no", should you organize to do something about demanding better compensation? That depends on how easy it is for management to just replace you with more folks that are good with the current compensation. I can't answer that other than that it hasn't worked out well for PSIA or previous patroller labor disputes that played out.

Here's thought I had that hasn't been mentioned.. Where would the ski and other recreational sports industries be without the things that unions delivered to most working folks? Without a traditional 40 hour work week, weekends off, healthcare benefits, paid holidays, etc.. where would Vail Resorts be?

[regct]

Breckenridge ski patrol union reaches contract agreement with Vail Resorts

https://www.summitdaily.com/sports/w...-vail-resorts/

Good for them. Now the money sits in a coffer until alllll the other ski patrols get contracts and then gets “donated to charities that further the cause” aka gets kicked upstairs to the CWA or given to politicians.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[altasnob]

Why do you say that? From the article, here is what Breckenridge Patrol gets immediately from their choice to unionize and ability to reach a collective contract agreement with management:

"While Anderson said nothing will change drastically in day-to-day operations, the new contract includes wage increases for all patrollers, patroller access to employee housing, guaranteed parking closer to work outside of high capacity days, and required education and training for all patrollers. Ski patrollers are also no longer at-will employees, which means they cannot be fired without due process."

[Meadow Skipper]

Why do you say that? From the article, here is what Breckenridge Patrol gets immediately from their choice to unionize and ability to reach a collective contract agreement with management:

"While Anderson said nothing will change drastically in day-to-day operations, the new contract includes wage increases for all patrollers, patroller access to employee housing, guaranteed parking closer to work outside of high capacity days, and required education and training for all patrollers. Ski patrollers are also no longer at-will employees, which means they cannot be fired without due process."

But we didn’t need those things back in my day.

And communism.

[d542east]

Seems like a lot of heated opinions in this thread from people with experience. I certainly have mine. Doesn't look like any minds being changed though.

I helped organize the union vote at Stevens, did four life affirming seasons up there. We had a good number of meetings at my house, I persuaded people to show up with kegs of beer and cider because I know my audience. I was very publicly pro-union in the day to day leading up to the vote.

Vail told me I would have to reapply for my job if I wanted to keep working up there the following winter. Of course I knew what that meant. That communication happened a week after my wife's initial cancer diagnosis so I stepped away from all of it without a fight. I don't regret any of those decisions, but I do wish I could have helped more during the bargaining process. Wife's on the mend, we're going to take the dog for a short tour once it stops dumping outside. Life is good now.

The PCPSPA gofundme is not a scam, it is exactly what it claims to be. PCPSPA has a bunch of public posts and communications pointing people there, it's not underhanded. Seems like a few of you are a bit on the tinfoil side of the healthy skepticism balance with that one. If you're anti-union that's your prerogative, but trying to paint a fundraiser as a dirty trick is either FUD bullshit and/or corporate dick sucking and its frankly grotesque. This is a skiing website not twogirlsonecup.

Obviously I am biased, but I'd be happy to answer any questions or clarify things to the best of my understanding. Snow's deep af right now so don't expect any quick responses.

[snapt]

Good for them. Now the money sits in a coffer until alllll the other ski patrols get contracts and then gets “donated to charities that further the cause” aka gets kicked upstairs to the CWA or given to politicians.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Just like anything in life, you can get as much or as little out of a large union org like CWA as you want. In good times when dues are ‘sitting in coffers’ they’re a good safety net. If a member is named in a lawsuit they’re going to appreciate a CWA lawyer rather than trying to pony up for one out of pocket. Likewise if they’re disciplined or terminated unfairly or simply have a grievance because policy isn’t being followed having national help is worth more than you’ll ever pay in dues. There is shitty management in all aspects of employment, it’s nice to know somebody has your back.

In addition to bargaining and protection unions offer tons of training and resources from financial to mental health and beyond. Membership saves loads on cell phone bills, vehicle insurance, mortgage fees etc.

Yes there is BS at the national level but at the local level there is really no downside.

[yeahman]

It is difficult to determine what exactly about union membership tfw and rgect are opposed to. The dues? The feeling of being controlled?

I was in a labor union for five years and heard all the arguments pro and con a thousand times. Most people who were opposed to being in the union complained about the dues, but I also think they were the type of people who just didn't want to feel controlled in that way, and they didn't do much of an in-depth cost/benefit analysis of the union membership. The benefits more than made up for the dues, I know that because I watched what happened after the members voted to decertify. The following year wages were slashed for newly hired employees, and benefits for some current employees were cut too. I left and never went back.

[This End Up]

Can we get a “Fuck Vail” sub-forum under Ski/Snowboard? I think there is sufficient content to make it worthwhile