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Thread: Fuck Vail! Here's how.
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12-30-2021, 11:08 AM #176powdork.com - new and improved, with 20% more dork.
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12-30-2021, 01:53 PM #177
CoveredCa probably complies with the Affordable Care Act.
cobra can be ,,, downright Unaffordable.
oh. I have known 'Seasonal' wildFire firefighters who worked March - October
( 'Seasonal' pretty-much Only in the Government PositionDescription. )
On the Job Way More than 2000 (two thou. ) hours...
stunned and not surprized by the Disrespect shown tfw.
the man is still making it work - for 42years. . .
hard for me to read Bunion wouldn't try to do it now. And I don't disagree.
IF the pendulum has swung back For Unions, That's Great !
my experience, And less than ten years past, is the Union(s) were part of the problem;
others have had better experiences and that's Good. But
eighteen months for two bucks to 17. / hour - I am not encouraged.
newer, younger, (Ski and Snowboard) Patrol members - Good luck.
Please remember,
you (gotta) show 'em you are worth more than they are offering
( Hard If nearby Destinations pay comparable wages )
( I need to read about Breck. )
I do wish for you
Great days... ! !
... love what you do,
you won't (feel like it is Work) ...
to paraphase a cliche'.
Good luck. skiJ
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12-30-2021, 02:33 PM #178
Love doesn't pay the bills. The most disrespectful thing I've read in this thread are the comments that basically are saying that patrollers aren't worth more and they should be happy to get what they get. You can stuff it with that ridiculous poppycock. Knowing your worth and taking a stand is something I personally think highly of.
I mean this in the nicest way possible SkiJ but man, you sound like a corporate boot licker.dirtbag, not a dentist
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12-30-2021, 03:03 PM #179
Most people here know the true identity of TFW and at the risk of making him blush, he is a legend and yes he made it work and readily admits it involved a lot of sacrifice and compromise AND a partner willing to take that on.
And not to insult anyone here but if you have not worn a cross and been paid for the effort you are really talking out your ass about something that you think you know but reality is way different. I am 100% in favor of groups getting together to negotiate or force a better working situation for them and their peers. That said Ski Patrolling doesn't really fit the mold for what these Unions are trying to wedge it into. In case you missed it, re-read TFWs posts. Yeah we do it cause we get paid but that is a secondary consideration. It really is about the lifestyle (or it was) and the brotherhood and the fact that the job is 75% fun as hell with a 25% slice of a shit sandwich that sometimes you have to eat.
I had buddies who were deeply involved with the original Canyons Union and they say it wasn't worth it. Take a great job and turn it into a "profession" and suddenly most of what made it so great isn't that great anymore. Watching the BSSP go through their motions these days and all I can say is, glad I was born when I was cause it looks like it sucks now.
Oh and did I mention, Fuck Vail.I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.
"Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"
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12-30-2021, 03:25 PM #180
Shoulda taken my own advice last night. Right on with the callout zzz. Love to take a walk with you.
Came in hot, got baited, and got hotter yet.
Sorry, all.
Obviously passionate about being a ski patrolman.
Maybe instead of saying STFU if you aren't one, I coulda said "Would some pro patrol folks from class A avalanche areas please weigh in on this, eh"?
Thank you to all that did, hopefully more will yet.
Enough of you chiming in could change me still...
Never said one needs to be an old timer to have an opinion.
Find myself at odds for the first time with some of you non patrollers whose opinions I respect.
And yeah, been up in the bubble of the LCC most of my life.
In one of my posts I said picking the right ski area is paramount.
As Bunion said, there's about 5 left that I would consider working at now.
As an optimist I will continue to believe that one can still be a career patrolman.
Hell, just be a dentist in the summer.
Today did not suck.
Vail does.Time spent skiing cannot be deducted from one's life.
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12-30-2021, 03:28 PM #181Registered User
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I'm asking this from a place of trying to understand -- why does it matter if you got paid for it if the pay is a secondary consideration and it's really about "the lifestyle"? Is what you mean "been a multi-season, full-time patroller as part of your career"?
I've gotten paid for it sparingly when we needed extra hands to pull sleds, work the PR, put up fences/pads, etc. But I've never been full-time or tried to make it a career. And of course my experience is limited by that.
I also can say I notice far more discussion from active, young, pro patrollers on platforms other than TGR. They have a very different experience than what is being represented here by mostly folks of an older generation. (Making that assumption based on people's stated tenures here...I'm out of the loop and don't know who the legend TFW is in real life. Would like to though...sounds like the sort of fellow I'd enjoy a good Ski Journal bio about). Making a life out of patrol is always going to be a bunch of sacrifices and compromises. And it isn't directly possible to compare the sacrifices or compromises of LCC in the 00s or prior, to the sacrifices of right now. There are many clear economic metrics between the two times, but the informal economies many mtn folks operate in and find a life through are a different game.
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12-30-2021, 03:32 PM #182Registered User
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Just want to start off by saying this has been an incredibly interesting thread and discussion.
One question I'd have for some of your older school patrollers - I've seen the term "pro patroller" tossed around a lot in this thread. Maybe it's just nomenclature, but I'd have to imagine guys like TFW and others who have done it for decades would think of themselves as professionals at what they do. So do you want to be considered a professional? But don't want to consider it a profession?
My first thought after reading this thread from start to finish was that on a good patrol crew you have many competent, qualified people making important decisions that directly impact operations (aka big money decisions for a resort). IMO whether you want to be called a professional or not, you are. Professionals deserve more than $15 an hour. Period. I work in the construction industry where laborers who carry water to the rest of the crews all day make $28 an hour. To me, something is majorly off on the patroller pay scale. It doesn't mean you can't still do it for all of the reasons mentioned upthread that don't have anything to do with the money. I mean, even now, is anyone really signing up to be a patroller thinking they're going to make it big? Doubt it.
This conversation is a result of the resorts/corporations getting away with what they've been allowed to get away with for such a long time that when the shit finally reaches a boil it's boiling over damn quick. The short sighted people who run these resorts will trip over a dollar to pick up a dime all day long. It goes way beyond this industry, it's employers in general these days not understanding that their employees directly impact their bottom dollar more than they think they do.
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12-30-2021, 03:41 PM #183
dude - raising arizona -
you do not know me at all.
not at all.
The interpretation - the spin you put on some of 'these comments' ,,, to interpret disrespect...
no.
I come from a background and an era when ,,, things were Very different.
You can have SkiCorp. ( including VR ) and all the Destinations.
"corporate bootlicker"
thanks for the Good laugh.
( bills - I worked. a twelve hour day was a short day ;
ski season was twenty-one hour days.
Love doesn't pay the bills and it can be a great motivator.
( I started to understand [ joy ] after fifty. After working hard for almost forty years. )
nostalgia.
to me, Vail is where I skied for four days as a boy in 1976 - the month the gondola fell at Lionshead...
VailResorts is not Vail to me.
in thirty years, you may have similar nostalgia, but I doubt it
( every generation has different circumstances )
"Love doesn't pay the bills."
" ... corporate boot-licker. "
to me, it would be hard to find two more incompatible ideas.
Fwiw ( about nothing. )
I am a Very literal guy - mean pretty-much Exactly what I say.
one starts 'interpreting what I say (in-writing)' to mean things that are convenient and ( it's worse than inaccurate. ... )
I will read about Breckenridge tonight -
I have no idea how BSP agrees to a contract that gives them the choice of unionizing or not.
oh.
' if you love what you do, it does not feel like ( a job ) '
That was attributed to John Madden this week.
One of the crazier characters for football fans of my generation...
pretty-sure JohnMadden paid his bills.
Thank you. skiJ" ... I will do anything to go Skiing ... There Is no pride ... " (Miriam , 2005-2006 epic)
Dec21, 2016. LittleBigLost :
" I think about it everyday. It is my reminder to live life to the fullest. I get up early, go to bed late, 'cuz I got shit to do. Like I said, I'm 61. Not going to wait till I'm 81 to do stuff, ...
Get out there and do stuff!
Enjoy life to the fullest!!
See you on the slopes! "
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12-30-2021, 03:47 PM #184
moar fukin word salads….
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12-30-2021, 06:03 PM #185
I'm guessing Vail Corp doesn't give stock or options to patrollers? That would be a good move imo and doesn't really cost them much
but a small charge on earnings.
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12-30-2021, 06:04 PM #186
Okay, I might add a little here. I was in the fed wildfire game for over 30 years. I retired and went to pro patrol for 13 seasons. There were some strong similarities between the two - crew camaraderie, hard work, fun, some dangers, some shitty times, occasionally beautiful locations, and real fucking problems making a career out of it.
I would have had some significant issues getting by on just my patrol pay, I was lucky/glad to have my firefighter retirement for cash and healthcare. But - and here’s what I noticed - I would have had significant issues getting by these days on what fed firefighters get paid these days, but I did just fine back then. I would have been fine back then with patrol pay too - not wealthy by any stretch, but I could have done it.
Times Have Changed. In my fire crew days I worked with some unbelievably awesome people - gypsies, poets, characters, authors, etc. and often the camaraderie was unbelievable. But those times are gone and fed wildfire folks are working/have worked hard to get things like health coverage, adequate/competitive pay, and employment security…and they deserve it. I support them, and patrollers too, if they want to improve their lot so that they can afford things and get employment security. If it takes unionizing, so be it.
The camaraderie might suffer (though I’m not convinced of that), but the way things were always look sweeter thru the haze of nostalgia. I’ve lived the dream, but dreams don’t pay the bills.
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12-30-2021, 06:07 PM #187
looks like someone has lit a fire under their ass. the Interlocken area of Broomfield is under mandatory evacuation. looks very bad
https://kdvr.com/news/local/grass-fi...winds-pick-up/powdork.com - new and improved, with 20% more dork.
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12-30-2021, 06:18 PM #188Registered User
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12-30-2021, 06:59 PM #189
Ive gotta bow out of this conversation. It’s exhausting. For me it was a long journey and a lot of personal sacrifice to become a ski patroller. It was my lifelong dream and it filled me with pride, and whittled away at my ego every day for which I will be forever grateful. I’ll never forget the day I was given my jacket. I’m thankful for the never ending experiences. I’m thankful to my leadership teams for the opportunities that were presented to me during my tenure. I grew as a human, and empath, and a man, and as a working professional because of them. The job motivated me to achieve stability (and I bought a fucking place this year!) growth that I always thought was out of reach. I thought the job was going to be the end game for me but life has a way of sneaking up on us as soon as we get comfortable.
I’ll always was and always will be an advocate for right to work, because I truly believe every person should have a right to negotiate the terms of their employment directly with their employer and that nobody should be cornered, threatened, into having to make that compromise.
I’ll miss it, but I’m thankful it happened and clearly it’s time to move on…and also I no longer have skin in the game.
This is a pretty good thread.
GTLA
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12-30-2021, 07:42 PM #190Hucked to flat once
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What I have learned from this thread is to not put it past Vail Co. to give the spouse of a labor union organizer cancer. I am glad she is on the mend.
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12-30-2021, 07:45 PM #191
Thanks those that have shared their patrol experiences and what they think about unionization. I think everyone can agree that patrollers aren't paid what they are worth and disagree beyond that.
I like the dialogue much more this evening than yesterday. Keep it up!
Fresh tracks to all!
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12-30-2021, 09:07 PM #192Registered User
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As a former, but not career, patroller, i would have remained patrolling if the job was 25% less fun as a result of union membership and (hypothetically) better financial stability and - primarily - health insurance.
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12-31-2021, 01:40 PM #193
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12-31-2021, 01:45 PM #194Registered User
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To the point Buster and everyone else cogent enough to see through the nostalgia is making:
Almost every American who has any sort of "wealth" or "capital" has the bulk of it in their home:
The problem is we've basically been playing a nationwide Ponzi scheme with homes and property as a store of value by making them scarce through terrible single-home-centric NIMBY policies that have driven housing prices up way in excess of population growth
Homeowners and the wealthy are out there advocating for policies that end up forcing the laboring class (i.e. those who don't own their own home) to pay larger and larger percentages of their income in rent, which has the perverse effect of making it harder and harder for them to save the sums required to get in on the home ownership game. Millennials and Zoomers have to sacrifice ever more of their income in order to purchase the homes of the Boomers and secure their place on the escalator of housing wealth.
Layer on top of this that the regions of the country we're talking about are awash in wealth and people translating that wealth into ever more expensive real estate and ever higher rents, making the sustainability of even having a laboring (i.e. non-capital owning) class in those regions ever more fraught.
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12-31-2021, 01:52 PM #195
That article was like a breathe of fresh air to read. Dealing with local issues at the local level is, IMHO the best way to handle labor relations. Too often management or Labor has minimally relevant agendas foisted upon them from corp or Union HQ.
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12-31-2021, 01:54 PM #196
...
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12-31-2021, 02:17 PM #197
Iii had a similar reaction, with an unhealthy dose of cynicism -
' parking privileges' are part of what is being included in Terms of Employment. (?)
I am sorry ( sympathy, genuinely. ) for those who have to deal with that. and
congratulations to BSP for reaching an agreement ( a multi-year agreement )
Good luck. skiJ
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12-31-2021, 02:25 PM #198While Anderson said nothing will change drastically in day-to-day operations, the new contract includes wage increases for all patrollers, patroller access to employee housing, guaranteed parking closer to work outside of high capacity days, and required education and training for all patrollers. Ski patrollers are also no longer at-will employees, which means they cannot be fired without due process.
But in the end if they are happy then I am happy for them.I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.
"Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"
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12-31-2021, 02:32 PM #199
This thread has gone a lot better than it looked like it was going to. Thanks everyone.
I'm not a patroller or a union member but my interest in the topic:
It's fucking scary man. My wife and I make great salaries, and it still feels like we're hanging on by our fingernails. A few years ago we were just able to afford a little house a mile from the one my mom grew up in. It's gone up in value like 20% while people have been dying of COVID. This all is not going to end well.
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01-01-2022, 10:12 PM #200
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