Fuck Vail! Here's how.

[abraham]

Could not have said it better.
However, unions are not the answer.

I'm curious why you think they so clearly aren't? Maybe I missed it in here, in the words of someone else there's been "Too much chatter, not enough clam"

I'd put the snow safety work in the same range as electricians, in that I'm glad the are other people dealing with the touchy aspects.

Buster and some other have a point about unions not being purely positive, but in general I think labor representation is a good thing. And it's the system we have now, do you think patrollers shouldn't be paid more? Or that unionizing isn't the way to do it? Regct's comments about the BS patrol unionization are interesting, they kinda flesh out a bit of the other side that's been alluded to in comments or here. But even then it's hard to tell if it's an opposition to unions or an opposition to better pay and treatment?

[telefreewasatch]

I'm curious why you think they so clearly aren't? Maybe I missed it in here, in the words of someone else there's been "Too much chatter, not enough clam"

I'd put the snow safety work in the same range as electricians, in that I'm glad the are other people dealing with the touchy aspects.

Buster and some other have a point about unions not being purely positive, but in general I think labor representation is a good thing. And it's the system we have now, do you think patrollers shouldn't be paid more? Or that unionizing isn't the way to do it? Regct's comments about the BS patrol unionization are interesting, they kinda flesh out a bit of the other side that's been alluded to in comments or here. But even then it's hard to tell if it's an opposition to unions or an opposition to better pay and treatment?

Gotta send you back to pages 3/4 so's I don't have to repeat myself.
Paid more, yes, a LOT more. The treatment thing? I measure my bonus in powder.
Lots of it.
In closed areas with no lift lines.
If ya haven't been there I can't explain it, but the red pass is priceless.
Ski patrolling at its best is an underpaid band of brothers.
The union thing kills the band of brothers thing.
No money is worth that loss...

[mr walker]

But that is partly what they're asking for. Enough money that new recruits stay there instead of going to the other mountains that pay more. Along with better (quicker starting too) insurance and working conditions. More experienced patrol makes their jobs safer. On the gofundme page it points this out explicitly

I saw this exodus in real time last season. Some people chalk it up as a hypothetical outcome, but it is not. If you do not respect your employees, whether it's through appropriate compensation, trust, working conditions, and a myriad of other ways, they will find another employer. I know it to be true because I did just that. Patrolling at a class A area has inherent risks, and some patrols take on more risk than others for a variety of reasons that may or may not be in their control, but a lack of experience when it comes to snow safety directly impacts safe and appropriate decision making at all levels during AC work. The correlation between respect, retention, and safety is legitimate.

Could not have said it better.
However, unions are not the answer.

I was and still am hesitant to support the idea that a union is the answer, but I can't come up with a better idea when it comes to going up against something like Vail Resorts. On my last day of work I signed the petition to send the argument to a vote, however, I'm not sure I would have voted yes, or voted at all, to unionize. I wish all patrols and patrollers in this situation the best. The motivations behind wanting a union in the first place broke my heart.

ETA:

The union thing kills the band of brothers thing.

I haven't patrolled at a place that has a union, so I'm not qualified to argue for or against that quote, but I am curious to hear why you believe that? I can tell you the attitude of the patrol when I left (NON-unionized at that point) was far less united than in the past. I cut a lot of ties at that point, but it seems like a lot of progress has been made after unionizing from my distant view which I frankly did not expect.

[Buster Highmen]

Unions are not the answer.

Have you ever been in one?
Unions have a lot of variations, some suck, some don't. It depends on a lot of stuff, it's not that simple.

Your opinion on the matter is clear.
But a union might strengthen the band of brothers for others.

[SumJongGuy]

STFU if you've never been in a union...

[telefreewasatch]

STFU if you've never been in a union...

Touche!
Gonna get up early, underpaid, go ski powder and hunt avalanches at a class A avalanche area tomorrow before the resort opens with my tribe who appreciate what we do.
And the avalanches we are triggering are a sight to see...
Sometimes I ask of the tribe:
"They pay us to do this"?
Night, all.

[abraham]

Paid more, yes, a LOT more. The treatment thing? I measure my bonus in powder.

Sounds like SFB.

Lots of it.
In closed areas with no lift lines.

... well not that part.

Ski patrolling at its best is an underpaid band of brothers.
The union thing kills the band of brothers thing.
No money is worth that loss...

I could see some type of apprenticeship approach maintaining that feeling, no?

Thinking of firefighter unions for example. Not an expert at all, just thinking aloud.

Also, I'd buy you that shot so we can hear more about what you think. Sounds like you've only had the beers tonight.



Labor stuff is interesting to me lately, I've been reading and thinking about how to do it well as I discuss starting another business with a couple friends. To me there's something appealing about the approach of totem cams even though I think there's room for variation in pay based on skill/ experience. And I know patrol's relationship with bigger businesses is a different situation. I dunno, I'm kinda thinking as I post and just trying to understand other positions. https://boulderingbabes.com/2015/07/...th-totem-cams/
https://www.totemmt.com/about-us/?lang=en

[SumJongGuy]

Touche!
Gonna get up early, underpaid, go ski powder and hunt avalanches at a class A avalanche area tomorrow before the resort opens with my tribe who appreciate what we do.
And the avalanches we are triggering are a sight to see...
Sometimes I ask of the tribe:
"They pay us to do this"?
Night, all.

Ya I do envy that shit.. 76 degrees here, 50s in the mountains with less than a foot of slush to ski in. Hoping they can make more next week before my 14 days of paid vacation ends middle of next week.. I worked at the ski hill as an instructor in high school. It was pretty sweet

[mr walker]

Touche!
Gonna get up early, underpaid, go ski powder and hunt avalanches at a class A avalanche area tomorrow before the resort opens with my tribe who appreciate what we do.
And the avalanches we are triggering are a sight to see...
Sometimes I ask of the tribe:
"They pay us to do this"?
Night, all.

I know what you're saying man. It is awesome. But for some folks those positive emotions are countered by the negative ones triggered by the realities of "can I find a place to live next season" or "I'm really struggling to afford (necessity)". No one is expecting to get rich, but things are getting tougher if you didn't establish yourself 20-30 years ago.

An old timer told me years ago "you have to ask yourself if the fucking you're getting is worth the fucking you're getting". Patrollers are answering that question with a hard no now. If a union can be the catalyst for change to make it worth it again and that leads to retention, then by all means. Time will tell if that kills the brotherhood, and I kinda understand what you're talking about, but there's only so much dirtbagging you can do and still make it in the current climate.

Stay safe.

[BCMtnHound]

No dog in this fight, but it couples closely with my own professional experience. I went into studies and started my work experience in a field that I enjoyed, and there was a very large part of romanticism in my endeavour. I was young, single, and had no assets but what I could fit into my little truck. I was paid moderately well, but wages were in decline by the end of my first decade of employment. That decline trend has continued (accelerated?) in the field to this day. I put most of a second decade in a similar path, getting more enjoyment out of my discipline than wages, but after several failed partnerships, both of the business and romantic kind, and still no significant assets, it was apparent a change was needed. Since my ethical leanings wouldn't accept a position with the corporate world, I chose to join government. Both options included the prospect of collective bargaining. I was finally able to settle in a single location, build some equity, and start a family (or at least spend more than 4 days out of 10 at best with them). I did give up some of the magic working for the man, and the union stuff has just as many bureaucratic boat anchors as sails, but there is security and still the work has that original je ne sais quoi if I work a bit to find it - work culture is more about what you bring to the table than what you receive anyways. Most of the mercenaries I started my career with joined the the big C or G; a few still are in consulting, but they are crusty in their advancing decrepitude, we don't enjoy beers together much anymore.
It doesn't matter if it is govt or corporate beancounters, their fascination with the penny will always drive the beauty out of any endeavour.

Maybe patrollers shouldn't have expectations about a economic return, if that is the culture the patroller majority want. Seems kinda of selfish considering most of the larger ski hills now are corporately owned and the profit margin could easily be better shared to the betterment of those that put their life on the line and also wish a bit more for their family. With the strength of big C corporate in NA, collective bargaining is the best recourse for those individuals.

No easy answers in the race to the bottom. I found my little paradise, and my wife and I are content with most of our lot. Ample space, consistent powder near to home (but not lift served), and reasonably secure employment in part due to collective agreements. Our 9yo daughter already dreams bigger, and I love her for it, but we will see where she takes those ambitions. I do hope our little t-bar opens this weekend, will volly patrol a bit and still pay for the day pass.

And in my limited experience with Vail Resorts, fuck Vail!

[powdork]

Touche!
Gonna get up early, underpaid, go ski powder and hunt avalanches at a class A avalanche area tomorrow before the resort opens with my tribe who appreciate what we do.
And the avalanches we are triggering are a sight to see...

I have a great view at work too, but it's not deadly. You're right though. $15/hr is plenty, probably too much really
https://www.rei.com/blog/snowsports/...-mikki-zuiches

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/l...9-96b7762b9c96

http://climbinglife.com/patroller-di...n-hole-resort/

https://www.thelocal.ch/20190114/ski...rlands-valais/

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/a-day-to-remember/

https://www.aspensnowmassshrines.com...n-ski-snowmass

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/wh...lanche-2497615

[powdork]

Maybe patrollers shouldn't have expectations about a economic return, if that is the culture the patroller majority want. Seems kinda of selfish considering most of the larger ski hills now are corporately owned and the profit margin could easily be better shared to the betterment of those that put their life on the line and also wish a bit more for their family. With the strength of big C corporate in NA, collective bargaining is the best recourse for those individuals.

Good points but at these levels it isn't about economic return. It's about survival or subsistence. Look at the numbers. They're asking for $17/hr to start instead of $15 (same as a lifty). No way that provides any type of economic return.
And from a safety standpoint this seems even more egregious to me

“Under this proposal, our patrollers approaching a decade of experience will make under $20/hr, and we will have 20 year patrollers receiving less than a 75 cent wage increase,”

[BCMtnHound]

Good points but at these levels it isn't about economic return. It's about survival or subsistence. Look at the numbers. They're asking for $17/hr to start instead of $15 (same as a lifty). No way that provides any type of economic return.
And from a safety standpoint this seems even more egregious to me

Absolutely. When I say economic return, I mean comparable risk and training, with consideration to corporate margins. Consider what a professional blaster makes for a mining outfit. Heck, even a safety guy at a major plant/pipeline/factory makes triple the patroller salaries you guys are stating.
Recreation industry has always banked on youth, location and romanticism to grossly underpay their staff. Even in my industry, consultants only make the good money wage loading off the juniors.

[snapt]

Union member here. In fact, Union president. In a dangerous line of work with a lot of cross over to the patrol world. It doesn’t kill the brotherhood, in fact, collective bargaining strengthens it when people step up to make working conditions better for their brothers and sisters. But keep preaching the bonuses of powder and class A avalanche hunting etc. I really dig my excellent health insurance, copious PTO, protection if I get hurt on the job or somebody tries to sue me, minimum safe staffing etc. And I deal minimally with the national labor organizations above me unless I need legal help or negotiation assistance.

Wildland fire and ski patrolling could really benefit from collective bargaining. Hell, even private EMS has finally caught on. Congrats on falling behind AMR in professional development.

[BC13]

It’s not as simple as just “going on strike”. There are several different types of conditions that need to be met before the labor group can lawfully strike, if those conditions aren’t met and the labor group still attempts to strike then they aren’t protected and could plausibly not be eligible for rehire after the strike. Ie the difference between a lawful and unlawful strike. Among many other conditions for a strike there would need to be a proven impasse in contract negotiations, the employer has to be proven legally to not be negotiating in good faith, among other things. Or vice versa to force a lockout. There are also provisions regarding health providers and I’m not sure if ski patrol falls under that but if that were the case then they need to provide a ten day notice to strike. Additionally, any effort to strike needs to be voted on beforehand by the labor group.


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Reg,

You are perfectly entitled to your own view of CWA and their ability to represent Patrollers effectively in collective bargaining.

As a labor relations professional and neutral with nearly 30 years experience, I would caution you, as I have thousands on the labor and management sides of bargaining, to realize you are very likely, despite your "research" a rank amateur in the world of private sector collective bargaining.

Contracts are earned through persuasion and leverage. If one side cannot persuade the other to agree with their position that side needs to generate enough leverage to force the other side to agree to their proposals. Leverage comes in many forms. In past times, publicity might rally the public to the cause (ie UFW California grape boycott - Chavez). Leverage might come in the form of political support and possible legislative or regulatory changes (ie. Min wage increases championed by NY unions).

If a group of workers has a short window to effect change and does not enjoy reat political or public support that bends the Employer's position, they need to put skin in the game. Illegal or legal, a strike needs to be considered and used against intransigent employers who cannot access a ready supply of replacement workers.

If the current situation facing patrollers was a case study, most labor relations professionals would assess the ample supply of alternate work for patrollers allowing maintenance of income, the relative lack of readily available replacement patrollers and the short ski season to call for a strike, as mentioned above - begginning with the Christmas ski week. While the Employer would clearly paint this as an illegal economic strike, would they really have the ability to permanently replace all of the patrollers? If yes, then the patrollers work their new found gigs. If not, which is more likely if the patrollers stick together and all strike, the ER pushes to get a contract done relatively quickly - overlooking the legal or illegal nature of the strike.

CWA nor any other union can guarantee employees' anything they are not willing to fight for themselves. Parent unions can guide and lend support and experience, but at the end of the day, the bargaining unit members either stay unified and fight the fight or splinter and bitch and moan. Management always Hopes for the latter.



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[BC13]

The air traffic controllers thought they weren't easily replaced too.. No way the FAA would allow air travel to continue with 80% brand new controllers right??

That was a defining moment in labor relations and has impacted bargaining for nearly 40 years.



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[MakersTeleMark]

As a labor relations professional and neutral with nearly 30 years experience, I would caution you, as I have thousands on the labor and management sides of bargaining, to realize you are very likely, despite your "research" a rank amateur in the world of private sector collective bargaining.

Meh.

[BC13]

So it's clear some semi retired troller(s) will cross the picket line to keep livin' the life.

And that is what ends leverage for the Emloyees.

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[powdork]

And that is what ends leverage for the Emloyees.

Not necessarily. That's where the size of the fund matters. There's a reason these ex-patrollers are just that. They were done patrolling. The pay now is less in today's dollars than when they did it (unless Vail will pay scabs more than it's employees). Plus they would deserve to have dog shit thrown at them which is a bad look in a snowy environment. Vail HATES dog shit on their snow.
Plus, it should be clear to any ex patroller they can have all those things (minus the control work) in the backcountry without dealing with Vail at all.

[skiJ]

Thanks, man.
I don't have the answers for the future.
Just know that a union and ski patrolling don't mix.
Cause it ain't about the money.
It's about the lifestyle.
Being at the right ski area is paramount.
Not trying to be the guy who dies with the most money.
Am trying to be the guy who dies having experienced the most joy.
Shit, coulda died years ago and met that goal.
A ski patrol lifestyle helps meet that goal.
Period.
(3 beers in).

' have reread the thead twice, and
I believe this is the best post in the thread - hands-down.

The demigraphics of patrollers has changed little in a very long time -
there is a big group with less than five years experience, and another group with more than twenty yeaes experience ;
there are less people in between.

in my experience, there is a simple explanation for this -
for those who love patrolling, we are there for the love of what we are doing. not because it is my job. not for a paycheck.

tfw said joy - and that's perfect.


I thought this thread was about a living/livable wage in a Destination. for 700 hours a year ;
That's not 17. / hour
( less than 20. / hour after ten years. )

go through the process -
eighteen months for two dollars per hour...
( I would bet a lot VR executives are not very concerned by/about this )

The "Snow Safety" / AC aspect of this is worrisome, Because that is Not work for beginners
( sometimes it still goes wrong for people with Many years of experience... )

Good luck.

a couple of you will never know the joy of working in a blizzard, leaning on the wind, cold as (heck) ( it took Two Days to warm-up after that ), knowing there was no place I would rather be, nothing I would have rather been doing.

two bucks more an hour is not Why a patroller loves patrolling

( the Membership is not in a labor Union - the membership is in The Patrol. )

(gimme) an hour with tfw or Bunion anyday.
all I want to do is listen.


find your joy.

skiJ

[skiJ]

There is also nothing (Nothing) that prevents one from fighting for a better life. But you've made it clear who's side you're on. Go Vail!

no.
Not. Even. Close to what I have said.


your posts discredit you.

I hope you have a good day. skiJ

[beer30]

It’s gotta be frustrating as a Redcoat when you know some dipshit named Kevin outta Boca Raton is making 450 a day teaching privates to some rich fucks he teaches tennis in the summer in FL

[m2711c]

If it’s “just for the joy of it“, then why the fuck are you guys accepting any pay at all? You should be doing this for the fucking shits and giggles, not for the dollars. Give back your fucking pay, and start volunteering….

[skiJ]

m2711 -

You are the only one who said,
'just for the joy of it' .

it is tfw's Occupation.
He made it work by finding a Life that works for the lifestyle he has chosen.

I have volunteered for thirty years.


This story is not about me ;
it IS about a group of people wanting more pay for seasonal work.

to get more pay, one has to show one's work is worth more than one is being paid.
Wanting to be paid more (ain't) going to get it done.

two bargaining professionals and a Union officer have weighed-in
( anyone who expects medical insurance and PTO for seasonal Work does not live in my world - and the Union life has been Good to the chapter president - good. )

eighteen months - and the proposal is two bucks an hour more.
That's sad.

Ski Patrol is an Occupation for Very few ;
part of the compensation (pay) may be skiing
( tfw's "bonus is Powder' (skiing) )


Kevin in BocaRaton (?) tennis (?)
no.

I don't ever need to see Florida again.


I hope someday you understand,

find your joy.


(gotta) Go !
my ninety-one year young friend is expecting me.

thanks. skiJ

[JongDoe]

Lol. What is gods name gives you the idea that Fail Resorts gives two wet fucks about opening expert terrain, hike-to terrain, or anything steep on storm days at a resort known (only locally) for damp, dank snowboarders?

theyll just give a couple guys some charges and tell them to blow the fuck out of anything that could slide onto the groomers. And if there is ANY question about stability, they will simply not open that terrain or lift. Just have two competent pro-patrol, and a bunch of gaping pugetopolis volly patrol (made up of Drs, nurses, emts) to man the groomers. They have already proven they find it acceptable to not open terrain, and understaff the mountain.

The folks that rip and hike, and slay steep, deep gnar in bounds arent the ones renting skis, and buying lunch for the whole family so why would Fail Resorts care about catering to them? They want the amazon/google/microsoft gaper family money, and with Epic passes so damn cheap compared to day tickets, folks will keep buying. Not the "core" crowd, but i bet the folks who ski 3 weekends a year with one of them at a Fail Resort destination resort will still make the purchase....

Just diving into this thread and i know nothing of the workings of resorts or ski patrol, but from a logical point of view I'm going to bet that CG has hit the nail on the head here.