Another chapter in the story of tech binding ramp angle study

[Benneke10]

There has been much discussion on tech binding ramp angle in my circles recently. It is cool that skimo co has created a repository for the binding ramp angle, (see here https://skimo.co/pin-heights), a big unknown variable is the ramp angle of boots. While it would be difficult to accurately measure the boot board, one thing we can accurately measure is the height of the tech inserts on our boots. I pulled out the boots I have at home, F1 LT, Skorpius, and Hawx XTD and was surprised to see measurable differences in the height of the tech inserts between the boots. The Skorpius has the lowest ramp, sporting the highest toe inserts and lowest heel inserts.

I was inspired to do this study after reading Jonathan S's comment on this article where he raises the variability of sole rocker on ramp http://www.skimolife.com/journal/201...uFCPAADGcV3DOQ

Hopefully we can create a repository here for the tech insert height on touring boots, or skimo co could make a chart for it.

[Spyderjon]

This is why I keep saying that the actual ramp angle of ones binding is boot make/model dependent.

[GoldenBC]

I would think your measurements are irrelevant. You are measuring the tech inserts in relation to the bottom of the rubber sole. If the rubber sole is bigger or smaller that will change your measurement but won’t change your ramp once you are clicked into the binding and your boot is floating.

Also, a high toe and low heal would make that boot have more ramp. The higher the insert, the lower you have to drop your boot to line up the pins (which are stationary).

I think it would be slightly more accurate to measure down to the inserts from the top of the toe and heel lugs. I assume there is more consistency in how boots are constructed in this regard considering the physical limitations working around a boot board, plastic thickness, and the lugs.


Or just use one pin binding as a constant and put different boots in it. Measure boot board angle with a small framing square or sliding t bevel and an angle finder on your phone.

[galibier_numero_un]

I think it would be slightly more accurate to measure down to the inserts from the top of the toe and heel lugs. I assume there is more consistency in how boots are constructed in this regard considering the physical limitations working around a boot board, plastic thickness, and the lugs.

This is an excellent point - measuring down from the top of the toe and heel lugs. I've never given much consideration to this, since I don't change boots frequently.

I've always concerned myself with binding differences in my quiver (via pin height delta), since I have way more binding variations than boots (2 pr. boots), and I'm more concerned with consistency for me, with my boots.

Also, I'm not hypersensitive to delta, as long as I'm in the general range of Vipecs (~10.5mm) to ATKs (4-5mm). My Plum Guides (17mm as I recall) - yup ... 6mm of toe shim for them.

While a database would be useful, accuracy of the numbers would be questionable. I found errors in skimo's table, and we have the OP measuring while the boots are on a carpet instead of a hard, flat surface.

lOW, think this may be going down a rabbit hole where no usable, reliable data will surface. We'll have a lot of numbers, and preferences will be stated, but they'll also be in the context of skier, style, ski, and mount point.

... Thom

[Jonathan S.]

[...]Also, a high toe and low heel would make that boot have more ramp. The higher the insert, the lower you have to drop your boot to line up the pins (which are stationary).[...]

Agreed -- I had the same reaction on reading the original post.

I also agree that many boot factors are at play besides the relative position of the toe vs heel interface. But I still think measuring the interface positions relative to the floor (which is being shown in the pics, correct?) is potentially helpful. Although I wouldn't select a boot based on that. I would though select a binding based on the "pin" delta, or at least shim the toe based on the pin delta.

[SoVT Joey]

I took my tech boots and skied my jesters on my Corvus. The balance was 98% correct. The ramp feels a little less then the alpine boots. Not enough to matter. After I knew the boots skied well, I went after my bindings. With my boot clicked in my binding I measured with calipers from the side of the top of the heel and toe lugs to the top sheet of the ski under the toe and heel piece. I then found the difference in height between

i snapped my tech boot into my kingpins and took the measurements in the same exact places on the heel and toe lugs to the top sheet. Found the difference and built the shim needed to replicate my preferred alpine binding. I repeated this for my alpinist as well.

both my kingpins and alpinists ski like my alpine bindings. And it was fairly easy to do. I ordered hdpe sheets from Amazon and built my shims. My kingpin was a 3.5mm heel lift and my alpinist was close to 9.5mm in the heel.

this can be done for how every many pairs of boots you have and for whatever ski as long as you can have a baseline alpine binding to measure off of.

I can’t imagine that skiing boots that have insanely different ramp angles will ever work unless you dedicate the ski to the boot with that ramp. Or just lift or grind the sole of the boot. But that’s crazy, just buy a boot that fits correctly, and correct fit is angle as well as everything else

[bovine]

If you haven't read it yet, on Lou Dawson's site, Wildsnow, there's a huge article on ramp angles, along with different tech binding maker's ramp angles for different models.

*I have neuromas that rear their ugly heads if my AT boots have too much cuff angle, or ramp angle.

BnD makes all kinds of ramp angle plates and sells screw sets for them too to accommodate for whatever tech binding you may be using. I use them on my Dynafits and my G3 Ions= solution.

[GoldenBC]

I took my tech boots and skied my jesters on my Corvus. The balance was 98% correct. The ramp feels a little less then the alpine boots. Not enough to matter. After I knew the boots skied well, I went after my bindings. With my boot clicked in my binding I measured with calipers from the side of the top of the heel and toe lugs to the top sheet of the ski under the toe and heel piece. I then found the difference in height between

i snapped my tech boot into my kingpins and took the measurements in the same exact places on the heel and toe lugs to the top sheet. Found the difference and built the shim needed to replicate my preferred alpine binding. I repeated this for my alpinist as well.

both my kingpins and alpinists ski like my alpine bindings. And it was fairly easy to do. I ordered hdpe sheets from Amazon and built my shims. My kingpin was a 3.5mm heel lift and my alpinist was close to 9.5mm in the heel.

this can be done for how every many pairs of boots you have and for whatever ski as long as you can have a baseline alpine binding to measure off of.

I can’t imagine that skiing boots that have insanely different ramp angles will ever work unless you dedicate the ski to the boot with that ramp. Or just lift or grind the sole of the boot. But that’s crazy, just buy a boot that fits correctly, and correct fit is angle as well as everything else

This is the only way to do it.

The binding numbers on skimp.com are helpful to compare what has more or less angle than another binding but does not give any information that can be compared to alpine bindings. You must measure like SvoT did. The numbers are only helpful to compare one binding to another while using the same boot.

The boot tech fitting measurements are useless. You can’t assume one boot feels like another boot just because the fittings are the same height off a carpet.

The other thing that gets me is companies that adjust toe height by moving the toe piece up and down, rather than the afd. So you change your soles and your binding has a different ramp angle? Sweet. Granted it is way easier to adjust, so fuck it.

[grinch]

I use them on ions and all my dynafit rads or speed turns. Dynafits need them more than ions. I can spot someone w/o them on dfits a mile a way. They look downright goofy. Full tiptoe thru the tulips goofy. Idk about rad 2.0's if that ramp angke is as drastic but i bought some by mistake from skimo. If anyone thinks they need some for rad 2.0's hit me up.

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[XavierD]

Can’t be that hard to come up with a way to measure actual boot board

[gregL]

Can’t be that hard to come up with a way to measure actual boot board

What if . . . you put you boot in the binding, took the liner out, downloaded a level app (mine is Bubble Level for iPhone), put the phone on the bootboard, and read the actual angle? Pretty straightforward, except bootboards aren't totally flat, so you have to figure out where to place the phone . . .

This is the ramp that counts, not the ramp produced by standing on the kitchen floor in your boots or even that hinted at by the relative height of the tech fittings.

[toast2266]

What if . . . you put you boot in the binding, took the liner out, downloaded a level app (mine is Bubble Level for iPhone), put the phone on the bootboard, and read the actual angle? Pretty straightforward, except bootboards aren't totally flat, so you have to figure out where to place the phone . . .

This is the ramp that counts, not the ramp produced by standing on the kitchen floor in your boots or even that hinted at by the relative height of the tech fittings.

Do that, and then lay a piece of wood on the pins of the binding (without a boot in it) and measure that angle the same way. Now you know the angle of the bindings and the angle of the boots.

[gregL]

Do that, and then lay a piece of wood on the pins of the binding (without a boot in it) and measure that angle the same way. Now you know the angle of the bindings and the angle of the boots.

If the boot shell is in the binding and the ski is on the floor, you already know what ramp that particular combination produces. You can do the same with an alpine setup you like and compare the results. It helps to put a piece of Bontex or some other hard flat material over the bootboard to "average" out the angle.

[toast2266]

If the boot shell is in the binding and the ski is on the floor, you already know what ramp that particular combination produces. You can do the same with an alpine setup you like and compare the results. It helps to put a piece of Bontex or some other hard flat material over the bootboard to "average" out the angle.

Right. I'm just saying that if you also measure the bindings independently, then you can determine the actual ramp angle of the boot alone, which was the point of this whole thread.

[SoVT Joey]

Honestly the numerical angle in the boot doesn’t matter. It’s the users balance and athletic stance that is comfortable to ski in. And the actual skiing position, not some bullshit mock up pretend position that the user strives for. Not all boots will work for all people. But not all people walk the same either. Women with big tits stick there asses out farther. That’s science.

I tried Greg’s method with the bubble level to some success and also having him do the foot scan app as well. And spent $35 talking to spyderjon on the phone and combined what these guys put out for knowledge.

not everyone is supposed to have a flat delta and ramp. And vice versa. And the reason C’s and DD’s were created.

[cat in january]

Just purchased marker alpinist and they put a twist on it that you shim the heel from +2 so a quarter inch thick piece of plastic gets to the middle upvote of 8. Bonus is gives the risers a little nudge. Skis and bindings both in transit but hoping to reuse kingpin toes and new heel holes? If so I can do an off on and just switch one ski

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Stick your phone in your boot and use this app to tell you the "slop angle" (it tells you out loud so you don't need to read the screen):

https://wbskiing.com/inclinometer.php

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[LeeLau]

Geek's out on this thread and shimmed my Alpinist heels 7mm

[tupp_]

^ Where did you source the longer screws?

[SoVT Joey]

^ Where did you source the longer screws?

normally any shop will have a pile of screws. Measure your original screw top to bottom with calipers, add the shim material thickness to the screw length, find screws longer, then take a grinder and shorten the screws to the proper length. Use visegrips to hold the screw when grinding.

[riff]

And wear glasses


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[dub_xion]

Late to this thread, and not providing really much help, but man has it been an adjustment to Skorps from TLT6/Vulcans on Alpinists, especially in deep snow. Will probably attempt the technically easiest fix of a heel wedge taped to the bottom of the footbed or top of footboard. Had the ultimate storm come together with low/negative ramp, too-high boot forward lean, and too-far-forward mount point and I was skiing like I’d never seen powder before. If the Skorps weren’t brilliant otherwise, I’d probably have stuck to Dynafit boots … or gone to Speed Turns I guess.

[Marshal Olson]

Can you Velcro a spoiler to your liner for more forward lean?
Given a fixed cuff location, a heel wedge opens ankle angle rather than closing it.

[LeeLau]

^ Where did you source the longer screws?

I got some 7mm longer screws from a ski tech friend.

Per Marshals comment below I did use velcro spoilers on my Hoji boots which are the one's with the most upright setting. But I had time, the material to play with, and an itch to try something different so decided to shim these Alpinist heels

[skis_the_trees]

...then take a grinder and shorten the screws to the proper length. Use visegrips to hold the screw when grinding.

Definitely better to hold with vise grips than finger tips or normal pliers. However, I've found the very best way to shorten screws a few mm is to take a piece of plywood, drill holes and put the screws in so the tips stick out the other side your desired amount. Then you can use a 4" angle grinder to grind them down without having to hold the screw directly and you can do a bunch at once. And as Marshall noted, always wear glasses!