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Thread: Skis as “Anchors” in Avalanches
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12-27-2021, 02:34 PM #26
I agree, experimental testing would be difficult. I’m thinking more data analysis to see if there is any relationship between burial depth and ski/snowboard attachment. Controlling for variables such as avalanche size, terrain, etc. would be important, but not impossible. But to your point, speculation seems like a weak basis for universal acceptance of a “fact.”
Personally my powder touring skis now have brakes instead of leashes. But I’m often left wondering what I would do I or a partner lost their skis. If you read the Silverton Avy School report related to the lawsuit thread, one of the victims (instructor) lost his equipment and needed to borrow a rescuers skis to get out. Losing equipment can also necessitate a rescue. How do you weigh the risks/consequences of equipment loss against the risks of attached skis in a slide if you can’t quantify the comparative risks/consequences?
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12-27-2021, 02:48 PM #27
This.
And this.
For discussion sake, what would you change about your approach to traveling through avalanche terrain if research studies indicated that skis don't act as anchors? Keep wearing leashes? I think you can do that now if you have a good breakaway system, but I don't see much advantage to doing so.
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12-27-2021, 02:55 PM #28
If you insist on a data driven approach vs. "what do I know about my/my partners's tendency to lose gear and what backups do I have to deploy in that situation (bivvy, fire starters, rescue sled, inreach, etc.)" maybe look for data on backcountry deaths due to exposure vs. deaths due to avalanches.
I'd add that backcountry travel inherently requires one to make decisions based on limited and imperfect data.Last edited by North; 12-27-2021 at 03:16 PM.
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12-27-2021, 02:55 PM #29
. But I’m often left wondering what I would do I or a partner lost their skis.
Take two shovels plus voile straps and turn them into snowshoes
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12-27-2021, 03:19 PM #30
Thanks for describing these experiences. It’s fucking scary and there’s rarely a clear right answer to situations like you described. I’m glad you made it out and I respect the experience you gained from those events.
Really whenever we go into avalanche terrain, every safety step is just an attempt to move the odds in our favor, not eliminate risk entirely. Good decision making is the best defense, but I’m fallible and I’m not planning on stopping skiing. I’d like the deck stacked in my favor if shit does south on me again or my partners again. That’s the reason I’m asking these questions.
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12-27-2021, 05:33 PM #31
This isn’t rocket surgery
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12-27-2021, 05:56 PM #32That’s the reason I’m asking these questions.I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.
"Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"
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12-27-2021, 06:47 PM #33
Here’s a reason to lose the skis, I knew a guy and his fiancé pretty well, they were out ski touring and he wanted to ski a spicier line. The rest declined but spotted him from a safe spot. He was caught in a small slab avalanche and carried through some larch trees. His dynafit toes were locked. His leg was disarticulated at the hip and he eviscerated through the gaping wound on his pelvis. His fiancé made it to him while he was still conscious and he died in her arms.
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12-27-2021, 06:57 PM #34
This is a good question. For me, I think if the data indicated ski attachment (at least with leashes) wasn’t a significant factor in burial depths I’d be skiing with leashes more often. I like that leashes reduce the risk of equipment loss, reduce gear weight, and make transitions less fussy. I also wouldn’t worry about my close friends who are splitboarders, and the additional risk they assume in the backcountry.
Some of my closest friends and ski partners are splitboarders and I worry about their safety. Our approach to skiing is that the group collectively assumes all risks. If someone sees a line they want to ski, the group discusses risks and dangers recognizing that an avalanche or injury is a group problem, and it’s everyone who’s not skiing that lines responsibility to stage a rescue if shit goes south. In other words, if you’re going to take a risk that might ruin everyone else’s day (or month or year), you should at least get their agreement first. If snowboarding substantially increases risk of a deep burial, that seems like it should be a group conversation (especially for those who are also good skiers).
I’d be curious to know if this would affect anyone else’s decisions.
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12-27-2021, 07:21 PM #35
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12-27-2021, 07:32 PM #36
Yeah that’s a better answer
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12-27-2021, 08:04 PM #37
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12-27-2021, 08:23 PM #38
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12-27-2021, 08:43 PM #39Registered User
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^^^^ This and this .....
The answer that it is best to become separated from your skis once you are entrained in an avalanche seems quite clear cut. You are looking for an answer to a question that does not lend itself to scientific testing. So you are left with speculation which has been given to you.
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12-27-2021, 08:54 PM #40
Fuck that’s awful. skiing with toes locked is something I’ve done, and also definitely in the rear view. Trauma is obviously a significant concern. I would assume a force significant enough to disarticulate a hip would be enough to release a non-locked out binding.
As a percentage of avalanche deaths, trauma represents the minority of victims (10-20%). Asphyxiation represent the vast majority of avalanche deaths. Among the traumatic injuries of avalanche victims, 2% are to the pelvis and 8.5% are to the femur. Thoracic, lower leg, and shoulder are the most common injuries (in that order).
Here’s a really good presentation that outlines the stats above and looks at equipment related issues that contribute to avalanche trauma.
https://youtu.be/XZ7Y5EzCiEg
I’m not arguing burial depth is more or less serious than trauma. And the two risks are related. But as a matter of probability, you’re more likely to die of asphyxiation. And asphyxiation is often a function of burial depth. I’m really curious about the factors that contribute to burial depth and ski attachment/detachment is one of those factors that may require additional study/analysis.
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12-27-2021, 11:37 PM #41
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