Audiophiles, help me build a decent stereo

**doubleeject** · 12-07-2021, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by AdironRider

I think you’re probably right but I’m kinda looking for the whole tactile thing of the record experience as well. The sleeve, liner notes, pressing play, etc. I’ve built up quite a book collection that I just moved across the country to everyone that helped me’s chagrin for similar reasons. That whole smell and feel of turning an actual page is so relaxing for me.

Gotcha, lots of folks approach their stereo setup under the impression that vinyl is automatically a superior medium, so I wanted to throw in my 2cents in case that was your perspective. I understand the enjoyment of the tactile experience that vinyl offers, it's something I also enjoy. With a little patience, you can find a reasonable deal on a used turntable (other components too). I've had good dealings with Echo Audio in Portland, although I don't have to factor in shipping, they have their used inventory online.

**basinbeater** · 12-07-2021, 03:35 PM

That tube integrated looks pretty damn similar to one reviewed by audio science review. They panned it.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...tube-amp.7513/

From the review:
The mechanical engineer and material procurement people deserve an A. The electronics designer know, gets a failing grade if he though this is a hi-fi product. Poor guy though was likely told to build this for nothing.

Congratulations are in order then for Monoprice to have produced probably the most faulty, and poorly measuring audio product I have tested to date. This would be good as a conversation piece on your desk and that is about it.

NOT recommended.

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**basinbeater** · 12-07-2021, 03:44 PM

A decent looking budget integrated if you are looking new is the Denon pma600ne. Has Bluetooth, 45wpc @8 ohms.

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**riser4** · 12-07-2021, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by basinbeater

That tube integrated looks pretty damn similar to one reviewed by audio science review. They panned it.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...tube-amp.7513/

From the review:
The mechanical engineer and material procurement people deserve an A. The electronics designer know, gets a failing grade if he though this is a hi-fi product. Poor guy though was likely told to build this for nothing.

Congratulations are in order then for Monoprice to have produced probably the most faulty, and poorly measuring audio product I have tested to date. This would be good as a conversation piece on your desk and that is about it.

NOT recommended.

Sent from my SM-G960U using TGR Forums mobile app

I wanna know how they really feel about it.

**Bite Me** · 12-07-2021, 04:12 PM

Been doing audio for over 50 years now, since the old Pioneer 727 with a Phillips TT and EPI 100's.

Big speakers - typically more efficient (louder for fewer watts), may or may not sound good. Also not a hudge Klipsch fan. The Canadians do it really well for a budget price - PSB and Paradigm have outstanding speakers that punch waaaaay above their weight. An old pair of PSB stratus golds are absolutely awesome, and are probably cheap by now. Look at the reviews - always excellent for decades. Definitive and others also make great decent priced speakers.

Small speakers - usually great imaging (can't tell where they are), - close your eyes and the image of the performance is there. Typically less bass, so a sub might be on the agenda. Can be a pita to set up so that it's seamless. Put the sub where you're going to sit then crawl around the room to see where it sounds loudest - that's where it should go.

Source - TT. Fine, but you have get both a TT and a cartridge to consider. Just a cartridge can go Waaaaay over your budget. Shure V15 was always a good choice.

Integrated vs separates? For your budget I'd go integrated. More bang for the buck, but maybe not so easy to find. Don't get something too old, as it may well require new capacitors and whatnot. Actually, there's a fair number of receivers that have decent sound, and if they're not the latest can be had for pennies on the dollar. If it's an AV receiver, you don't have to use everything in it.

Cables, do NOT dismiss the importance of cables (speaker, interconnect and power), but at your budget, I wouldn't go too crazy. If you haven't heard what good cables can do, then you don't know what they're capable of, or don't have a system that can resolve the difference. Like going out on marginally tuned skis and then good ones - whoa, what a difference!

Cheapest and most effective mods -
-room treatment. Go to Guitar Center and get some Aurelex panels to damp out the room at first reflection point (set system up and have someone move a mirror along wall - when you can see speakers in mirror, that's the first reflection point,), also do front or back wall. The greatest system in the world can sound like crap in an untreated room. I cover mine so they don't look so bizarre with cloth - anything you can breath through is OK.
Speakers - GET THEM OFF THE FLOOR. use spikes or something else to minimize the speaker / floor interaction. You want to hear the speakers or the room resonance?
Speaker placement - be careful on this - just a few inches can spell the difference between meh and nirvana. Typically a few feet out into the room, and MAYBE toed in, maybe not.
Vibration - put something that absorbs (a cut up mousepad can work under component feet, particularly source components.
Power - make it clean. Get a decent conditioner to take out spikes and also protect. It'll cost at least $100 (DON'T get a strip) but might save you when there's spikes.
Also - power is logrithimic, so a "just noticible difference" takes twice the power, and twice as loud requires 10x more, so the difference between a 100 and 200w amp is marginal. Yes, there's a LOT more than this to amp ratings, but don't get too tied up in power. I have a couple of Brystons that have a decent rating, but the power supply is like having a 454 under the hood.

**Conundrum** · 12-07-2021, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by basinbeater

That tube integrated looks pretty damn similar to one reviewed by audio science review. They panned it.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...tube-amp.7513/

From the review:
The mechanical engineer and material procurement people deserve an A. The electronics designer know, gets a failing grade if he though this is a hi-fi product. Poor guy though was likely told to build this for nothing.

Congratulations are in order then for Monoprice to have produced probably the most faulty, and poorly measuring audio product I have tested to date. This would be good as a conversation piece on your desk and that is about it.

NOT recommended.

Sent from my SM-G960U using TGR Forums mobile app

Thanks for the response. Deleted my post. Wanted to do some learning first and come back with some better questions.

**ntblanks** · 12-07-2021, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

Thanks for the response. Deleted my post. Wanted to do some learning first and come back with some better questions.

If you're set on having orange glowing vacuum tubes as part of your setup and don't want to spend $$$ consider getting a tube DAC rather than a tube amp or receiver. It's a nice intro to what tubes are all about (the actual aural effect, not just the aesthetics) but also a lot cheaper than a better quality tube amp. If it ends up just being a passing fancy you'll save a lot of $ this way.

**basinbeater** · 12-07-2021, 09:19 PM

Don't forget a good tuner. Best way to listen to KUAA Tuesday night long road home program. Kickin' ass so far tonight. 99.9 FM in SLC.

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**refried** · 12-08-2021, 09:46 AM

The prices on used Sony XDR-F1HD tuners have come down and is something worth looking for, they don't look like much but I have one that is as quiet and picks up distant stations as well as the Sansui TU-9500 and Pioneer TX-9800 I have (both 5 gang). The biggest drawback for the Sony is it doesn't look like much, no nice dial, no weighted knob to spin, just a small plastic box.

**frorider** · 12-08-2021, 10:28 AM

Slight hijack, but any thoughts on best approach to lightning-to-HDMI connection? From the brief research I did a while back, the generic cables are crap, and the Apple one works fine but only for 6 months or so.

Denon integrated amp has USB input but connecting that to an iPad or phone just triggers a bullshit Denon UI that is kinda useless.

This would be for audio purposes. Not concerned about DRM and Netflix blocks etc.

**jorion** · 12-08-2021, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bite Me

Been doing audio for over 50 years now, since the old Pioneer 727 with a Phillips TT and EPI 100's.

Big speakers - typically more efficient (louder for fewer watts), may or may not sound good. Also not a hudge Klipsch fan. The Canadians do it really well for a budget price - PSB and Paradigm have outstanding speakers that punch waaaaay above their weight. An old pair of PSB stratus golds are absolutely awesome, and are probably cheap by now. Look at the reviews - always excellent for decades. Definitive and others also make great decent priced speakers.

Small speakers - usually great imaging (can't tell where they are), - close your eyes and the image of the performance is there. Typically less bass, so a sub might be on the agenda. Can be a pita to set up so that it's seamless. Put the sub where you're going to sit then crawl around the room to see where it sounds loudest - that's where it should go.

Source - TT. Fine, but you have get both a TT and a cartridge to consider. Just a cartridge can go Waaaaay over your budget. Shure V15 was always a good choice.

Integrated vs separates? For your budget I'd go integrated. More bang for the buck, but maybe not so easy to find. Don't get something too old, as it may well require new capacitors and whatnot. Actually, there's a fair number of receivers that have decent sound, and if they're not the latest can be had for pennies on the dollar. If it's an AV receiver, you don't have to use everything in it.

Cables, do NOT dismiss the importance of cables (speaker, interconnect and power), but at your budget, I wouldn't go too crazy. If you haven't heard what good cables can do, then you don't know what they're capable of, or don't have a system that can resolve the difference. Like going out on marginally tuned skis and then good ones - whoa, what a difference!

Cheapest and most effective mods -
-room treatment. Go to Guitar Center and get some Aurelex panels to damp out the room at first reflection point (set system up and have someone move a mirror along wall - when you can see speakers in mirror, that's the first reflection point,), also do front or back wall. The greatest system in the world can sound like crap in an untreated room. I cover mine so they don't look so bizarre with cloth - anything you can breath through is OK.
Speakers - GET THEM OFF THE FLOOR. use spikes or something else to minimize the speaker / floor interaction. You want to hear the speakers or the room resonance?
Speaker placement - be careful on this - just a few inches can spell the difference between meh and nirvana. Typically a few feet out into the room, and MAYBE toed in, maybe not.
Vibration - put something that absorbs (a cut up mousepad can work under component feet, particularly source components.
Power - make it clean. Get a decent conditioner to take out spikes and also protect. It'll cost at least $100 (DON'T get a strip) but might save you when there's spikes.
Also - power is logrithimic, so a "just noticible difference" takes twice the power, and twice as loud requires 10x more, so the difference between a 100 and 200w amp is marginal. Yes, there's a LOT more than this to amp ratings, but don't get too tied up in power. I have a couple of Brystons that have a decent rating, but the power supply is like having a 454 under the hood.

I found this very helpful. Half of it tracks with what I’ve already learned so I’m inclined to believe the other half.

Cables mattering doesn’t really make sense to me but I’m open to being proven wrong.

Also, the more I research separates the more I appreciate the rr2160 I have. It does everything pretty respectably and includes everything I needed when I didn’t have anything other than speakers and a turntable. Pretty solid DAC, pretty solid phono stage, lots of power, optical ins for the TV, and it doesn’t cost much.

**AdironRider** · 12-08-2021, 11:09 AM

I struggle on the cables still myself. Feels very much like the wine analogy.

I just can't see how the copper is any different between a 1000 dollar cable and a 75 dollar cable, guages being equal.

**frorider** · 12-08-2021, 11:18 AM

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...arison-tests-0

**basinbeater** · 12-08-2021, 11:36 AM

Switching stuff in and out, I've had a number of cheap cables fail me. I decided I didn't want to worry about cables anymore. I don't buy into the $1000 cable thing. I do get the need for low capacitance cable for long single ended cable runs. I have bought 30ft of mogami cable @ $0.70/ft and some Neutrik RCA connectors @ $1.85 a piece. The result should be high quality cables for a reasonable price. Works out to about $14 for a 2 channel interconnect.

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**Timberridge** · 12-08-2021, 11:41 AM

Uh oh. Getting into cable discussions with audio guys is a bit like asking if you should buy Pivots or STH's in Tech Talk.

...or what motor oil.

**EWG** · 12-08-2021, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Timberridge

Uh oh. Getting into cable discussions with audio guys is a bit like asking if you should buy Pivots or STH's in Tech Talk.

...or what motor oil.

Kinda like asking where the southern border of Upstate New York is...

**Timberridge** · 12-08-2021, 11:52 AM

Yeah, unfortunately somebody had to go tickle the dragon. We'll see how bad this gets in here first, but we may have to start a new thread for AV cable arguments.

**irul&ublo** · 12-08-2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by AdironRider

I struggle on the cables still myself. Feels very much like the wine analogy.

I just can't see how the copper is any different between a 1000 dollar cable and a 75 dollar cable, guages being equal.

The 1000 dollar cable uses really cool artisan copper

**El Chupacabra** · 12-08-2021, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by irul&ublo

The 1000 dollar cable uses really cool artisan copper

Locally stolen... err, harvested?

**highangle** · 12-08-2021, 12:57 PM

XLR and TRS cables rule them all
Monoprice is a good brand

**Bite Me** · 12-08-2021, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by highangle

XLR and TRS cables rule them all
Monoprice is a good brand

I didn't mean to open the cable can-of-worms, just wanted to indicate that they CAN have an effect, and didn't agree with the wholesale dismissal. Yes, I have XLR's throughout, but a couple are more than his whole system budget - and that's why cables CAN matter is having minimal interference in the system as XLR's bring a step further by isolating the signal. Also agree that Monoprice and Belden have excellent designed and produced cables for only marginally more than the crap that comes with stuff. I had a bud that used the junk that came with the components and there was a nasty hash sound. We put in monoprice and similar throughout and it cleared up. The usual rule-of-thumb is 10-15% of total price should be in cables. Of course, used is the way to go, as cables are completely "flavor of the month", so decent used cables can be had very reasonably. Guitar Center also has Mogami, again, a good cable with low loss and good insulation for a decent price.

Just look at this for how nutty cables can be - https://forum.audiogon.com/topics/cables.
Here's a nice pair of Transparent speaker cables https://www.ebay.com/itm/20348194273...0AAOSwUMNguNwy

And don't even start on power cables.

One place I wouldn't scrimp is turntable cable. It's such a low level signal that eliminating noise and interference is really mandatory. Again, they are not that expensive for a good one.

What about a phono preamp? Some great tube ones at reasonable prices.

What are your source %'s? CD, DVD, phono, tuner, streaming etc? Once again, would a good receiver make sense, as it would encompass all of the things, whereas a tuner might not? At about $2k, I'd want about 7-800 in speakers, $700 in amplification, 500 in source, $100-150 in room treatments and 100 in cables. Sure the numbers could be moved around a bit, but ultimately they're about the way I'd spend it.

**riser4** · 12-08-2021, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Timberridge

Uh oh. Getting into cable discussions with audio guys is a bit like asking if you should buy Pivots or STH's in Tech Talk.

...or what motor oil.

Tickle the dragon??? Imma head over to the heroin thread and chase the dragon.

**zion zig zag** · 12-08-2021, 02:24 PM

I think the biggest barrier to me going down this rabbit hole is space. I don't have a good room for it. Lots of hardwood, concrete, glass, high ceilings, open to the kitchen etc. And I don't think my wife would love big floor speakers 40 inches from the wall for 'proper' imaging. I'd love a set up for dedicated music listening but just not sure it's likely. Maybe I just need really good headphones.

**ntblanks** · 12-08-2021, 02:40 PM

Anyone following here running a minimalist *passive* stereo preamp? I'm starting to look at these to control 2- 3 inputs and volume.

**basinbeater** · 12-08-2021, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by zion zig zag

I think the biggest barrier to me going down this rabbit hole is space. I don't have a good room for it. Lots of hardwood, concrete, glass, high ceilings, open to the kitchen etc. And I don't think my wife would love big floor speakers 40 inches from the wall for 'proper' imaging. I'd love a set up for dedicated music listening but just not sure it's likely. Maybe I just need really good headphones.

Look for a nice set of smallish bookshelf speakers with front ports that you can put on stands and easily move into position. Front ported will make them sound better closer to the wall, and smallish easy to move, so when you are qeuein up dark side you can move them into position. Enjoy nice soundstage. I have some Canton Karat 30 (west German $900 back in the day, beautiful real wood cabinets) that sound great, look great, and are sealed. They don't mind being closer to the wall. They sound great. Probably worth a few hundred these days.
Go for a smallish integrated like a ps sprout, Peachtree nova, or other $1000 integrated with bt and phono pre. Get it used for $5-600. Add turntable and CD player.
Have a nice compact system. Don't get analysis paralysis.