softshell jacket (yes, again)

[rod9301]

Like others here, i wear a wool/synthetic shirt, or, then a light windshirt. Hard shell in the pack.
BUT my down puffy is not thin, i want to be able to survive hours if I'm injured

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[Stenis]

wow, i really cant see my hardshell being under anything besides the big puffy.
Which brand/models do you use? or it's just a matter of buying the different sizes?

Arcteryx Sphene. Fits well under my Mountain Equipment Prophet jacket. The hardshell gets very little use these days, but because I mainly tour in Norway, a waterpoof shell is a must-have. Dynafit's Mercury softshell covers a huge variety of conditions and it's my favorite piece - and I got it cheap at 150 EUR

[random_watcher]

I think the term softshell is almost purposely vague as it describes a wide range of jackets that can be very versatile in their usage. From summer alpine climbing to arctic pulk hauling.

Some of the confusion probably comes from the use of the word softshell, some people are using it to describe a type of fabric and others are using it to describe the function they are using it for.

To me a softshell is any non-waterproof jacket that is predominantly used as an outer layer.
Using Arc'teryx as the OPs example this would typically range from the Gamma SL at the lightweight end to the Gamma MX at the heavy end.

However I can see that things like windshirts and active insulation jackets can essentially be used to function like a softshell i.e. as an outer most layer for most activity. I guess the term softshell was being used before these types of jacket were the norm so doesn't really cover them though.

[lorcar]

Having the armpit zip is not so important for softshell jacket? I see that Arc Gamma doesnt have it, however the new Procline does.


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[grubbers]

Pure stretch woven softshells, like the Gamma line, generally breath well enough to not necessitate pit zips. That Procline is more of a hybrid shell with the Windstopper membrane. Companies will always tout the breathability of their membranes, but they will never breath as well as a stretch woven fabric. Even most windshirts are only slightly better than the Gore-Tex trash bag when you’re getting the heart rate up.

I tour exclusively in the Gamma LT jacket and Rush FL pant out here in Tahoe with just a light to mid weight base layer underneath. There are some jackets that are slightly more breathable than the Gamma, but they won’t be as weather resistant when it’s dumping. I only bring a hardshell if it’s raining at the base and that’s just for the way down.

[GoSlowGoFar]

I tour exclusively in the Gamma LT jacket and Rush FL pant out here in Tahoe with just a light to mid weight base layer underneath. There are some jackets that are slightly more breathable than the Gamma, but they won’t be as weather resistant when it’s dumping. I only bring a hardshell if it’s raining at the base and that’s just for the way down.

Spoken like a true AG employee ( Mitch here). The real question is when are they going to bring back the Procline FL pant?? I like the rush but still not the same level of breathability at the Procline FL.

[grubbers]

Spoken like a true AG employee ( Mitch here). The real question is when are they going to bring back the Procline FL pant?? I like the rush but still not the same level of breathability at the Procline FL.

The new Upstride pant from Patagonia is going to be a bit more breathable than the Rush, but the jury’s still out on how dry it will keep you when it’s snowing.

[Lindahl]

Yeah, words matter ya know.
Anything with a membrane and/or completely blocks the wind just shouldnt be called a softshell.

This. If you can't breathe through the material without straining, it's not a softshell. It's a membrane softshell, aka lifestyle softshell, aka wear-it-around-town piece, (aka sometimes a windshirt). It will neither breath well nor block rain or heavy snow well. Useless piece if you ask me. Just get a hardshell if thats what you want. Weighs less, packs down smaller, breathes just as horribly and will at least keep you dry from outside elements.

If it has insulation inside or has fleece, its also not a softshell. If you can breath through it still but it blocks some wind, then it's an insulated softshell. If it doesn't block any wind, then its a midlayer. If you can't breathe through it, then it's just an insulating jacket.

Every backcountry skier needs one of those pieces that blocks some of the wind but not all of it. It'll help keep you warm when exposed to the elements without making you sweat like a hardshell would. You want to be comfortably cool, with the breezes and gusts creating just enough air movement to keep you dry inside (often means wearing just a baselayer under).

Even most windshirts are only slightly better than the Gore-Tex trash bag when you’re getting the heart rate up.

Yup, the Houdinis that evertone touts are actually pretty bad these days. The original one from the first few years were great, but the newer ones don't really breathe at all ( unless they've changed again in the last couple years).

[Lindahl]

at the top of the skin I put my hardshell on right away (I have it lashed to side of pack so can grab it quickly) and then pull out puffy jacket to put on top of hardshell if it's cold or windy - that keeps me warm while up there - then puffy gets stuffed back in pack for ski down in hardshell

typically use Arcteryx Nuclei for puffy - light, stuffable, windproof - not the most durable shell material though

Assuming you have a softshell on, you could probably ditch the hardshell and be just as comfortable just throwing the puffy on top and removing it right before skiing down in the softshell. That's what I do, even on really cold days.

[Stenis]

This. If you can't breathe through the material without straining, it's not a softshell. It's a membrane softshell, aka lifestyle softshell, aka wear-it-around-town piece, (aka sometimes a windshirt). It will neither breath well nor block rain or heavy snow well. Useless piece if you ask me. Just get a hardshell if thats what you want. Weighs less, packs down smaller, breathes just as horribly and will at least keep you dry from outside elements.

If it has insulation inside or has fleece, its also not a softshell. If you can breath through it still but it blocks some wind, then it's an insulated softshell. If it doesn't block any wind, then its a midlayer. If you can't breathe through it, then it's just an insulating jacket.

Every backcountry skier needs one of those pieces that blocks some of the wind but not all of it. It'll help keep you warm when exposed to the elements without making you sweat like a hardshell would. You want to be comfortably cool, with the breezes and gusts creating just enough air movement to keep you dry inside (often means wearing just a baselayer under).

This should go into backcountry layering 101.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

the Houdinis that evertone touts are actually pretty bad these days.

I strongly disagree. I have used the old Houdinis, as well as some other more permeable wind shirts (such as the Houdini Air and the Arcteryx something or other), and own a couple of the new Houdinis. I used to think I wanted a more breathable wind shirt. I was wrong. The new Houdinis are the best of the lot because they block the wind so well. It's a 4 oz. jacket that can stand up to real weather. They still breath far better than a hardshell, and just as important, dry quicker than even an ultra thin softshell.

Similarly my favorite soft shells have a tight weave that is just about impossible to breath through. No membrane. And they are close to wind proof. They are not very stretch and they don't trap moisture like a hardshell. These are hard to find because, I think, stretchy fabric sells better in the shops.

A softshell that can't block significant wind is just a thin sweater. And a windshirt that can't block the wind is just a shirt.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Assuming you have a softshell on, you could probably ditch the hardshell and be just as comfortable just throwing the puffy on top and removing it right before skiing down in the softshell. That's what I do, even on really cold days.

Same


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[bennymac]

I sweat too much/generate too much heat to have a soft shell on for the skin up. Generally have t-shirt covered with a thin long sleeve half-zip hoodie.

the chill I get at the top of the track is treated by putting on my hard shell right away. Then puffy overtop (if needed).

Ski down is hard shell over those 2 base layers.

[bennymac]

A wise man once said:

“I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["softshell jacket"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.”

[XXX-er]

Having the armpit zip is not so important for softshell jacket? I see that Arc Gamma doesnt have it, however the new Procline does.


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Pataguccci, mtn hardwear, marmot and back to pataguccii now

I have never owned or seen a softshell with pit zips,

they have always breathed well enough with just a base layer that i didnt need any more venting

[pfluffenmeister]

Pataguccci, mtn hardwear, marmot and back to pataguccii now

I have never owned or seen a softshell with pit zips,

they have always breathed well enough with just a base layer that i didnt need any more venting

Ortovox Col Bechei is a touring specific soft shell with big pit zips.
Plus huge front mesh backed pockets; merino next to skin.
Sweet piece (and pricey); sadlythe only size that was on sale was too small.

[skis_the_trees]

As you have discovered, this is no industry standard for what constitutes a "soft-shell" and it encompasses the spectrum from Windshirt (i.e Patagonia Houdini) to stretchy fabrics with a membrane. But often a "soft-shell" is more durable than an insulation piece because the face fabric is much more robust (hence the -shell in the name). What layers will work for you vary a lot based on your fitness and touring goals, you location, and the weather that day. But for the most part you don't need much -- ski touring is 80%+ walking uphill. What would you wear to go for a run in the winter? That's a better comparison to touring than lift served skiing is.

If you want to keep it really simple, I'd say for the upper body you need a
-synthetic base layer (YMMV, some love merino),
-some type of breathable insulation/midlayer (I prefer Polartec Powerstretch fleece but its not sexy anymore compared to the fancy synthetic insulations)
-light puffy jacket (or bigger puffy if it's really cold),
-Windshirt (or soft-shell du jour). this might be in addition to or instead of the fleece or puffy depending on how cold or windy it is. If it's calm I might only wear it for a long descent, if it's blustery I wear it on the ascent or long ridge traverse. In May I just bring the Windshirt only and with a hood it gives sun protection.

After a half dozen tours you can figure out what hasn't left your backpack. But mostly you need LESS and just keep moving, avoid slow transitions and treat it more like going for a run. Since that only tangentially addresses your question, I will add the below:

what do you consider a softshell: the Atom/Proton or the Procline? The Procline.
would it be common to have Nano/Atom/Proton under the Procline? Not for ski touring, sounds too hot on the up and too heavy to carry the Procline just for the down.
Would you use a jacket like the Procline also on the way down? is it a replacement or a complement to a hardshell? Who uses a hardshell touring (I think some people in the PNW do?) I haven't taken a hardshell touring in the last 10 years. I also don't wear hardshell to run no matter what the weather including 30deg rain.
how many things do you keep in the backpack then (windshirt, puffy, nano air, softshell, hardshell, etc)? As little as possible. Just puffy, Windshirt, or maybe both on very specific days.
i see the Procline is windproof, but not waterproof. Do you simply check the forecast and then decide what to bring, or carry both hardshell and softshell? Do you go ski touring in the rain? I do sometimes. I still don't wear a hardshell. Why do you need a waterproof layer to walk uphill?
thanks a lot! I hope that was helpful.

[lorcar]

first of all thank you so much for responding to my query, very insightful thread at the end.
So at the end one of the below 3 would be my choice, mostly for splitboarding or for going up with snowshoes and board on the backpack

https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/procline-jacket


I understand Gore Infinium is supposed to be very breathable, have some bikers friends who love it, however if it breathes so well why then the armpit zip? someone might ask and also if it so weather resistant then it might not breathe so well

https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/gamma-lt-hoody

This is a classic favourite by many


https://rab.equipment/eu/kinetic-2-0-jacket

i discovered this by chance and it seems to hit all the criteria. However not so many reviews/comparisons on the web, and also i read it does have a membrane, so based on this thread "if it has a membrane, doesnt breathe well". Do you have any experience with it? i read RAB has great quality

would you go straight with the GAMMA LT without any further ado?
thanks again

[Lindahl]

I strongly disagree. I have used the old Houdinis, as well as some other more permeable wind shirts (such as the Houdini Air and the Arcteryx something or other), and own a couple of the new Houdinis. I used to think I wanted a more breathable wind shirt. I was wrong. The new Houdinis are the best of the lot because they block the wind so well. It's a 4 oz. jacket that can stand up to real weather. They still breath far better than a hardshell, and just as important, dry quicker than even an ultra thin softshell.

Similarly my favorite soft shells have a tight weave that is just about impossible to breath through. No membrane. And they are close to wind proof. They are not very stretch and they don't trap moisture like a hardshell. These are hard to find because, I think, stretchy fabric sells better in the shops.

A softshell that can't block significant wind is just a thin sweater. And a windshirt that can't block the wind is just a shirt.

I guess we're just built differently. Windshirts just don't breathe enough for me. I'm way more comfortable in a stretch woven that has an open enough weave that you can breath through. They still block wind way more than 'sweaters', whatever that means. They eliminate breezes, and reduce gusts to just a breeze which is perfect for keeping me dry and comfortably cool. I adjust my baselayer (powerstretch on really cold days) to be comfortable with no jacket on below treeline out of the wind and then I'm good till I break treeline and toss the softshell on. If I'm cold starting out, I sometimes wear it till I warm up. I prefer a steady amount of airflow regardless of what I'm wearing, unless it's really nasty out above treeline.

[jono]

if it breathes so well why then the armpit zip? someone might ask and also if it so weather resistant then it might not breathe so well

Armpit zips increase versatility by allowing you to get a sudden increase in ventilation or slight increase from the baseline (by leaving them slightly open) when conditions aren't perfect for whatever your layers are. In wetter conditions they let you keep the shell on to a warmer temp (being under your arms, the shell keeps shedding).

Conditions change. People are different. Nothing is perfect. Anyone who tells you they never need "X" level of insulation, water resistance, wind resistance, etc is speaking to their own body and the conditions they're willing to get out in. Take it with a grain of salt or look closely at how similar your own tastes (and local conditions and physiology) are to theirs.

Lindahl and I've Seen Black Diamonds (see above) are at different points on those spectrums. They'll both be right for themselves and wrong for some others.

We could be honest and say "a soft shell is a shell that's soft" and note that different levels of each prized shell feature (breathability, weatherproofing, durability) are more or less appropriate in different combinations, conditions and for different people. We could say that. But this is TGR. We have a bullfighting forum based entirely on the principle that we would rather get pedantic about defining jacket features than features of men. And once you build that forum you don't just start admitting that wordy definitions and rigid, staunchly-defended positions might be overkill. Hell no. If anything, you start daydreaming about better jackets in which to fight bulls. Comfort? WATER? Call me when 2 tons of muscle are driving the horns right at your precious pit zips. Then we can give this topic the serious consideration it deserves.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Conditions change. People are different. Nothing is perfect. Anyone who tells you they never need "X" level of insulation, water resistance, wind resistance, etc is speaking to their own body and the conditions they're willing to get out in. Take it with a grain of salt or look closely at how similar your own tastes (and local conditions and physiology) are to theirs.

Lindahl and I've Seen Black Diamonds (see above) are at different points on those spectrums. They'll both be right for themselves and wrong for some others.

For sure. Except I still agree with Lindahl et al. that a softshell can't have a membrane.

I run hot, don't sweat much and ski mostly in the Indian Peaks and RMNP where heavy wind is almost constant. So a layer that provides good wind protection and little insulation is perfect. I've skied with this skinny Italian dude a few times who will be wearing a softshell over a fleece when I'm wearing a t-shirt.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I have a hybrid soft shell with membrane. It has a membrane on the upper arms, shoulders


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[jono]

For sure. Except I still agree with Lindahl et al. that a softshell can't have a membrane.

This speaks to the real purpose of these forums, thank you. To clarify (since the physical softness of a shell need not necessarily be reduced by the presence of a membrane, of course) do you mean you would not admit such an item into your kit or that the Canon should not allow such vulgar uses of our beatified jargon? TIA

[I've seen black diamonds!]

This speaks to the real purpose of these forums, thank you. To clarify (since the physical softness of a shell need not necessarily be reduced by the presence of a membrane, of course) do you mean you would not admit such an item into your kit or that the Canon should not allow such vulgar uses of our beatified jargon? TIA

I mean that the older, simpler and generally more useful way of differentiating hardshells and softshells is that the former have membranes and the latter don't. There is nothing wrong with a soft, stretchy hardshell. I use one for resort skiing. I also have a nice old Patagonia softshell with no membrane that barely stretches at all.

But outdoor clothing brands have been using the the term "softshell " to refer to anything soft for quite a while. They also use terms like "stretch hardshell" or "waterproof softshell." Whatever helps sell a product.

None of this offends me. And I have no doubt that Arcteryx et al. will win the jargon war over aspiring codgers like me. But I'll stick with the older usage, which speaks clearly to construction and purpose. If you want to call a carrot a penis, go for it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I have a hybrid soft shell with membrane. It has a membrane on the upper arms, shoulders


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