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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    2. Teens in the workforce - first, no one wants to hire them because weird hours and additional protections, while for kids you don't get into the best schools by working, but through sports, charity work and other extracurriculars.
    What are you basing these statements on? Around here businesses are begging teens to work after school, evenings, weekends, whatever. They can get hired immediately. I also think having a job and showing leadership/initiative can help a lot when applying to colleges. My oldest is going through that process right now and her experiences working (with kids, actually) are a big focus of her essays, letters of recommendation, etc. She has a lot of extracurriculars and sports on her resume, but work is where she matured and learned the most IMO.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    colorado voted on a family leave bill last year and it actually passed
    it was played out by many as socialism and it is going to cost business owners and the economy too much people are going to abuse the system and the gov't will not be able to manage it property
    at least it past, a great step in the right direction, sure it will cost me money

    it's messed up how demonized "welfare" has gotten
    If a system like that isnt working well, it splits people into see, those systems cant work versus more money, more attention, we need this, lets do it right

    And both have their reasonable pointsmy big gripe is when the it will never work people start actively sabotaging the thing so it cant work. I think theres too much of that element in most govt programs geared towards helping poor people.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile View Post
    More importantly, ask people who took a few years off to care for their kids if they regretted it.
    I bet none do.
    There's plenty of research on this. Very few would choose not to stay home with their kid again. That doesn't mean they aren't massively punished in their future professions because of it. They loved the time with their kids and don't regret it--but also regret that it cost them their career. It is possible to create policies that more fully enable both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    As someone who has family in early childhood education, it irritates me to no end that people do not see early childhood education workers as teachers. Of course, some "daycare centers" are just "we will keep your kid alive centers". But anyone who has sent their kid to a really good ECE facility knows what I am talking about. My kid is so much better off for having gone to her preschool, even if I had the financial ability to take off those 5 years I could not have done as good a job as those professionals did.
    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    I must be of the last generation to grow up like this, but I didnt have day care, my mom just brought me to all these older ladies houses in the neighborhood when I was little, and paid college and neighborhood kids to watch me when I was a little older.

    I think people dont really do that anymore, and its maybe a shame. I had a real potpourri of different households and stuff from that process. I drive through town and just remember some houses: that house had a comfortable basement with couches and stuff, that one had a big fish tank, that one was a huge mess with clothes and toys everywhere.etc.
    You can have both a professional, high-quality early care and education experience and the support and variety of home-based care. Most kids these days are not in child care full time from 0-5. The percent of kids who are in full-time formal environments is about 30% for 0-1 year olds up to 80%+ for 4 year olds. That reflects a combination of parental choice to be home more in the younger years, financial reality of affording care, and belief in 3/4 pre-school being more critical for academic development. As of 2019 (when I last directed a major statewide study on this question) -- if parents had their choice with no barriers, it'd be more like 50% of 0-1 y.o. in full-time care to 90%+ for 4 y.o. Still a lot of folks who prefer home-environments, family-friend-and-neighbor care, especially in the early years.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    If a system like that isnt working well, it splits people into see, those systems cant work versus more money, more attention, we need this, lets do it right

    And both have their reasonable pointsmy big gripe is when the it will never work people start actively sabotaging the thing so it cant work. I think theres too much of that element in most govt programs geared towards helping poor people.
    Aka the Karl Rove school of Republicans.

  5. #180
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    Actually I was thinking of Grover Norquist. But misattributed to Rove. However, fuck him too.

  6. #181
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    the greatest generation: work this job for forty years buy a nice modest home cars and you will be taken care of

    boomer: born into the biggest economic growth ever get handed everything on silver platter talk about how you pulled yourself up by your boot straps and hate on the gov't

    gen x: whatever

    millennials: don't worry I'm going to fuck you over before you fuck me over I'm not stupid

    the millennials will eventually change things for the better the current debt that the boomers are forcing us into so they can continue to live their good life is beyond ridiculous some one needs to put an end to it

    many people don't care about working because they are betting that things will fall apart and fall quickly in the next couple years
    just got a report on the building industry and costs it's pretty sobering

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    There's plenty of research on this. Very few would choose not to stay home with their kid again. That doesn't mean they aren't massively punished in their future professions because of it. They loved the time with their kids and don't regret it--but also regret that it cost them their career. It is possible to create policies that more fully enable both.





    You can have both a professional, high-quality early care and education experience and the support and variety of home-based care. Most kids these days are not in child care full time from 0-5. The percent of kids who are in full-time formal environments is about 30% for 0-1 year olds up to 80%+ for 4 year olds. That reflects a combination of parental choice to be home more in the younger years, financial reality of affording care, and belief in 3/4 pre-school being more critical for academic development. As of 2019 (when I last directed a major statewide study on this question) -- if parents had their choice with no barriers, it'd be more like 50% of 0-1 y.o. in full-time care to 90%+ for 4 y.o. Still a lot of folks who prefer home-environments, family-friend-and-neighbor care, especially in the early years.
    Im going to echo Danno here and put in another vote for ECE. No way my kids would know as much if I were home full time with them. We stayed at home as much as possible between 0-2.

    We got lucky and had the grandparents do full time care for a year, but they are 40+ hour a week daycare kids now. We pay through the nose for a place with accreditation and an established curriculum for the staff to follow. Many of the staff are working on teaching degrees or already have an advanced education themselves.

    I think most kids would benefit with more time with family AND more opportunities for structured learning.

    I suspect the problem at the lower end of the income distribution in dual income homes are leaning heavily on neighbors and grandparents and need two jobs just to make rent and put food on the table.

  8. #183
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    Well the good thing is if you don't want to go to work, you can stay home, trade meme stocks and take care of the kids at the same time. One door closes, another opens.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  9. #184
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    This thread is enlightening in regards to the difference in peoples priorities. No judgment, different strokes and all.



    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    What are you basing these statements on? Around here businesses are begging teens to work after school, evenings, weekends, whatever. They can get hired immediately. I also think having a job and showing leadership/initiative can help a lot when applying to colleges. My oldest is going through that process right now and her experiences working (with kids, actually) are a big focus of her essays, letters of recommendation, etc. She has a lot of extracurriculars and sports on her resume, but work is where she matured and learned the most IMO.
    Regarding college entrance, consider that there is a negative correlation between kids working and kids coming from families with enough money to support the college's endowment in the lifestyle to which it has become accustomed. Nothing to do with what's good for your kid, just that some "good" colleges might have a different set of priorities than you do.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    I’m going to echo Danno here and put in another vote for ECE. No way my kids would know as much if I were home full time with them. We stayed at home as much as possible between 0-2.

    We got lucky and had the grandparents do full time care for a year, but they are 40+ hour a week daycare kids now. We pay through the nose for a place with accreditation and an established curriculum for the staff to follow. Many of the staff are working on teaching degrees or already have an advanced education themselves.

    I think most kids would benefit with more time with family AND more opportunities for structured learning.

    I suspect the problem at the lower end of the income distribution in dual income homes are leaning heavily on neighbors and grandparents and need two jobs just to make rent and put food on the table.

    I think this is a very typical perspective and experience. And you're spot on re:lower income. The Great Resignation is in part the reckoning of priorities around raising kids.

    FWIW, I've got no experience at all as a parent and don't plan to change that. What I do have is almost a decade working in analytics/research/evaluation of EC programs (both ECE and family support programs) at the state level. In some ways my lack of direct experience is a negative, in other ways it helps keep me removed from systems I'm hired to evaluate and improve.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    I also think having a job and showing leadership/initiative can help a lot when applying to colleges.
    I wish this was right, but I dont think it is.

  13. #188
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    I spent almost 2 years as a stay at home dad after the dot com crash and collected 18 months of unemployment, not a lot but it was enough with wife still working. Don't know about other folks, but I enjoyed the daddy daycare time but definitely had ENOUGH of that and happily put my kids in daycare and then Pre-K when I went back to work full time. I kept my MS Office skills up to date, and even improved on some things the entire time I was out. That's what kept me relevant and got me hired when things picked up again..

    Maybe a better question than "do you regret it?" should be "were you glad to get back to work?" assuming that was an option..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Well the good thing is if you don't want to go to work, you can stay home, trade meme stocks and take care of the kids at the same time. One door closes, another opens.
    pixilated monkeys FTMFW!

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    To be fair though -- we're all the beneficiaries of early childhood education. The economic return on investment is more efficient than most any other mechanism of social welfare. https://heckmanequation.org/
    100%. Education at all levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    As far as other points:
    1. Individual vs broad subsidies/programs - making subsidies paid by businesses with parents of young children doesn't work as small businesses will discriminate against them like crazy.
    Businesses need to have skin in the game if they are a primary beneficiary. That doesn't mean costs need to be siloed within a business and it doesn't mean funding can't come from other sources.

  16. #191
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    Im just glad this thread isnt overrun with confirmation bias.

    Truly, something for everyone here.
    focus.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    pixilated monkeys FTMFW!
    Yes, that too. So many opportunities we never had before. Everyone quit bitching, the world is your oyster, fry it, or eat it raw.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    100%. Education at all levels.




    Businesses need to have skin in the game if they are a primary beneficiary. That doesn't mean costs need to be siloed within a business and it doesn't mean funding can't come from other sources.
    Why? The economy needs businesses to work and they'll fight tooth and nail on anything that equals more taxes for them - regardless of benefit. I think funding mechanism is less important than other pieces.

    @yeahman - just based on my own history in retail and observations. If businesses are begging teens to work, it's usually because they pay absolute dogshit and don't want to deal with actually paying people real money. Teens are really only good for temp needs and light retail, of which there's not as much in COVID times and rarely do the payscales work out. Teens rarely can pick up extra shifts, so it's more management for a fixed capacity vs. flex capacity.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    There's plenty of research on this. Very few would choose not to stay home with their kid again. That doesn't mean they aren't massively punished in their future professions because of it. They loved the time with their kids and don't regret it--but also regret that it cost them their career. It is possible to create policies that more fully enable both.
    .
    To bring this home to the 'Great Resignation' at hand, I think it's evident enough people are willing to take the hit (and for those with a strong professional reputation and connections, that hit is light) to their career to make child care the priority. The consequences are accepted, life goes on. The choice to drop the kids off with relatives (often free of charge) or through a formal daycare center also have consequences. Eventually, when careers become demanding enough, a live in nanny makes the most sense. Again, consequences. To loosely quote a C-Level Fortune 125 connection of Mrs HGC and I, expanding professional success requires outsourcing of our daily "to do" list. Childcare, cooking, cleaning, maintenance, shopping, etc. are all on the table. Everyone will prioritize that list differently, because you can't have it all.

    Maybe through COVID, enough people have realized that you can always work, you can always earn a paycheck, but you can never earn time.

  20. #195
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    When my in-laws looked after thing#1 we paid them. They needed the money. We didn't have a lot either back then however paying the going rate where they lived saved us 50% vs where we lived (Burlington) even factoring in extra gas and time. Sadly my BIL and his wife thought we were getting free daycare and were bitter about it.

  21. #196
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    The Great Resignation 21

    Quote Originally Posted by nickwm21 View Post
    Im in the same industry. Ive worked for the same large commercial GC for my entire career (12 years).

    We do a lot better at managing people than you describe if you like the work, you end up staying with us for 20-30 years. All upper management in operations are promoted from within

    But our drop out rate is still terrible. Something like ~30% of college grad engineer hires will reach 5 years. Most that drop out leave the large GC field completely. Many even leave the AEC industry completely.

    Its a tough job. Stress is high. Deadlines are real. The sums of money you are dealing with is large. There is so much out of your control but defined as your responsibility. There are a lot easier desks to ride in other industries.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Yea for sure regarding the work, its a tough job. However those who have left, many of whom I keep tabs with, are still in the industry.

    We had some major upheaval 3 or 4 years ago when an outsider was hired into an upper management/exec position, got rid of a bunch of longer time, well respected people, then filled those positions with a bunch of his cronies from the same company he came from. Most of those chuckleheads are gone though the the damage left behind is probably going to last decades. When you have executives fly out to your job who dont even have the decency to make the rounds with all of their employees, what does that say about their character or how many shits they give about you. Yea, thats a rhetorical question, we all know the answer.

    If theres one thing Ive learned over my time in this industry, its that theres a fucking huge difference between cohesion and motivation. People tend to see right through the former.

  22. #197
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    And there's the other faction of this "Great Resignation".. Those who are quitting over the vaccine requirements.. I don't think they're holding out for better compensation.. #WelfareQueensFTW!
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    Why? The economy needs businesses to work and they'll fight tooth and nail on anything that equals more taxes for them - regardless of benefit. I think funding mechanism is less important than other pieces.
    Because employers are a direct beneficiary.
    Because payroll taxes all already regressive.
    Because corporate income tax rates are near historical lows.
    Because businesses already fight tooth and nail on anything that equals more taxes for them.

    What is the alternative? Personal income taxes? Sales taxes? Something else? Why? Because there is less organized resistance?

  24. #199
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    The Great Resignation 21

    I worry that preschool/daycare will morph into elementary school light. Preschool needs to be fun and nurturing as much or more than it needs to be a hard push for early education. We pulled my son out of the fancy preschool because the regimented style made him miserable. He excelled at the less structured preschool because the focus was on fun and community, which was ultimately more beneficial to him.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    I worry that preschool/daycare will morph into elementary school light. Preschool needs to be fun and nurturing as much or more than it needs to be a hard push for early education. We pulled my son out of the fancy preschool because the regimented style made him miserable. He excelled at the less structured preschool because the focus was on fun and community, which was ultimately more beneficial to him.
    Yeah, I mean really the whole way we educate people in general needs a look for applicability and success, the challenge is who gets to decide the success KPIs, as it can go very wrong.

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