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  1. #126
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    ^^^ There's plenty of people to fill the good jobs. Just not the crummy ones like retail, restaurant, child care, medical, service, maintenance, construction, delivery, office, etc. If there were only a whole lot more highly compensated positions available for people with few/no marketable skills then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vt-Freeheel View Post
    25 billion into building childcare facilities? Who is going to build this out? Where are the extra materials coming from? Are there 10s of thousands of qualified people to staff them?

    This whole multi trillion dollar bill keeps talking about millions of jobs when there doesn't seem to be enough bodies to fill the ones that we already have.
    TBD. Seriously. No one has any fucking idea. Exits from child care workforce are at an all time high. Child care capacity is about 30% below likely demand if care was universally available. That is...we need 1/3rd more capacity which is fucking huge. The building facilities are the easy part. Creating and sustaining the workforce is the oh-fuck part.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
    ^^^ There's plenty of people to fill the good jobs. Just not the crummy ones like retail, restaurant, child care, medical, service, maintenance, construction, delivery, office, etc. If there were only a whole lot more highly compensated positions available for people with few/no marketable skills then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
    given quits are at a high maybe they have marketable skills and thats why they are getting the fuck out? Never mind, keep up the old fart rants tgnar

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I guess my local perspective is skewed due to our housing problem, among other things. The quality of entry level employees/new hires is problematic. As is the over it sentiment among the long time, good ones. People are sick of being treated like shit, and actually have options in this hiring environment. The observation is as simple as that.
    It's crazy how the number one attribute around here is housing.

  5. #130
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    I took the kids to Moe's last week because the line was out the door at Chipotle. I had not been in Moe's for 2 years as we prefer Chipotle.

    I was stunned. They had 4 kids working. One girl was doing more work than the other three combined. Only one sheepish "welcome to Moe's" (cannot blame them). They did not have Guac or salad dressing because one of the kids "forgot to make it" according to another worker. The store was a mess. If I had my wits about me I would have left.

    My kids were asking lots of good questions after we left which boiled down to "HTF could Moe's have such horrible service". I got to teach them about supply and demand and why companies need to work to keep good employees. I felt bad for the one woman busting her tail. I will be surprised if the store remains open for more than a few months if that is the new norm.

    I dont blame the restaraunt workers for jetting. Covid, grumpy people and understaffing for low wages. F that!



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  6. #131
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    I've posted in a couple threads about this topic, so apologies if anyone has seen these stories elsewhere.

    Shit's wild even outside typically shitty jobs. My GF worked in a government finance role for a large local government entity in CO. Her employer started talking about a return to office plan post vaccination and lost 60% of her department to permanently remote positions. Everyone that left went from in-house government work to management consulting and got a 50%+ pay increase. Consulting firms are picking up huge numbers of employees into perma remote positions at the moment.

    Also of note- my professional experience with Gen Z up to this point has been really good. They're intelligent, hardworking and have grown up in a time period where there is absolutely no expectation of a social contract between employer and employee. The Gen Zs that I've managed seem to see right through corporate bullshit. Maybe there is hope for this world.

  7. #132
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    I worked "remote" as a territory rep for ~6 years, and Mrs Hatch's capstone project through COVID is spearheading her company's 'Future of Work" program, and I'm still blown away there are that many permanent remote gigs out there. It's really incredible what's happening.

    FTR, I said "remote" because there were plenty of customer visits, trade shows, vendor/supplier events, HQ trips outside the home.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile View Post
    I worked "remote" as a territory rep for ~6 years, and Mrs Hatch's capstone project through COVID is spearheading her company's 'Future of Work" program, and I'm still blown away there are that many permanent remote gigs out there. It's really incredible what's happening.

    FTR, I said "remote" because there were plenty of customer visits, trade shows, vendor/supplier events, HQ trips outside the home.
    Any smart company that looks at all the angles sees productivity roughly the same for white collar workers while paying pennies on real estate (lower cadence of cleaning/maintenance, no cafeteria etc.), wider recruiting pool, massive travel savings because people can meet remotely and lower wage scales than major metro (SF etc.) salary bands - what's not to love? You pay a little in cohesion and culture acclimation, but if you're of any size you have to do that at a wide scale anyway.

  9. #134
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    Basically we're experiencing a quiet revolution, or an informal unionizing of the workforce as a whole.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    Any smart company that looks at all the angles sees productivity roughly the same for white collar workers while paying pennies on real estate (lower cadence of cleaning/maintenance, no cafeteria etc.), wider recruiting pool, massive travel savings because people can meet remotely and lower wage scales than major metro (SF etc.) salary bands - what's not to love? You pay a little in cohesion and culture acclimation, but if you're of any size you have to do that at a wide scale anyway.
    Those are quite common these days.

    Onboarding is a big challenge in permanent remote, as is ongoing training and "culture". You nailed many of the benefits. It will also flush out bad managers quickly. Flexible work is not a bad thing, I just find it interesting there are that many roles to go around. Perhaps this is my PE-owned manufacturing background talking, or that sticky Bullshit Jobs theory that there is an overabundance of goons, box tickers and taskmasters in the professional world.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Basically we're experiencing a quiet revolution, or an informal unionizing of the workforce as a whole.
    It's amazing and now is the time to use what power folks have found thanks to the pandemic disruptions. However, we need to also change the laws (back) to allow collective bargaining and discourage outsourcing more strongly..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  12. #137
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    Smack in the middle of white collar work here. Our organization is going to voluntary WFH moving forward but what the last 1.5 years is showing is those who are going into the office regularly (at least a day or two a week) are excelling and those who haven't been in for 1.5 years are struggling. We are not seeing the same productivity from the WFH as we are from those going into an office by a long shot. Fat is also starting to get trimmed which long term will be a good thing but is causing some short term problems. Also seeing culture issues with those staying home-staff lacks respect for the leaders and those not pulling weight. I get it, it's tough to shoulder a load of work when your boss is in their jammies and only checking in to show that they still work here.

  13. #138
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    The Great Resignation 21

    Quote Originally Posted by east or bust View Post
    Hit the nail on the head. Its mind blowing that this line of thinking is lost on some people.

    Been working for a large corporate GC for the last 5 and a half years and the turnover rate amongst our entry level 1-5 year engineers is atrocious. Ive worked on 3 separate projects with this company and here are the figures ( not including me)

    Project 1: 4 of 4 quit
    Project 2: 5 of 6 quit
    Project 3: 6 of 9 quit and were only half way done!

    Its funny, but totally makes sense, how managers are appointed here. It basically requires no questioning of whatever policies get barfed down the food chain, being totally alright with working insane hours on a salary payroll, no reflexibility whatsoever when it comes to teh rulz, and just a boot licker attitude in general.

    Example: Friday going into a holiday weekend, craft cuts out at 1pm. Couple engineers finish their shit and leave at 2pm (instead of 5pm), manager goes into payroll system and enters 8hrs vacation for each of them without notifying them. What the actual fuck.

    Example 2: We had morning meetings everyday with all of the engineers to go over their tasks ok, feels micro managy AF already. What this meeting devolved into over the course of a few months was an opportunity for management to berate the engineers and left us know, almost daily, how replaceable we all were. Well the joke was on them when people started dropping like flies, and it turned out they werent as replaceable as it was made to be known.
    Im in the same industry. Ive worked for the same large commercial GC for my entire career (12 years).

    We do a lot better at managing people than you describe if you like the work, you end up staying with us for 20-30 years. All upper management in operations are promoted from within

    But our drop out rate is still terrible. Something like ~30% of college grad engineer hires will reach 5 years. Most that drop out leave the large GC field completely. Many even leave the AEC industry completely.

    Its a tough job. Stress is high. Deadlines are real. The sums of money you are dealing with is large. There is so much out of your control but defined as your responsibility. There are a lot easier desks to ride in other industries.


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  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile View Post
    Those are quite common these days.

    Onboarding is a big challenge in permanent remote, as is ongoing training and "culture". You nailed many of the benefits. It will also flush out bad managers quickly. Flexible work is not a bad thing, I just find it interesting there are that many roles to go around. Perhaps this is my PE-owned manufacturing background talking, or that sticky Bullshit Jobs theory that there is an overabundance of goons, box tickers and taskmasters in the professional world.
    FYI the bullshit jobs book is based on no real empirical research, they just knew it would sell.
    Basically any accountant, analyst, software dev, non trial lawyer, paralegal, etc. Is valid for remote.

  15. #140
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    I am an IC and do consulting work. I was approached about a month ago for a project that I didn't really want. I submitted a bid that is 4x what I normally charge, they didn't even blink.

    Last week they sent me a contract that was 9+ pages and cautioned that I should have it reviewed by my legal council. I countered that I don't retain legal council and any contract that is so complex that it requires review is too much for me, with great respect, thanks but no thanks.

    Today they countered by signing my 3 page proposal and telling me to just send an invoice every month and they will pay.

    I could get used to this.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    I am an IC and do consulting work. I was approached about a month ago for a project that I didn't really want. I submitted a bid that is 4x what I normally charge, they didn't even blink.

    Last week they sent me a contract that was 9+ pages and cautioned that I should have it reviewed by my legal council. I countered that I don't retain legal council and any contract that is so complex that it requires review is too much for me, with great respect, thanks but no thanks.

    Today they countered by signing my 3 page proposal and telling me to just send an invoice every month and they will pay.

    I could get used to this.
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  17. #142
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    I guess I am part of this. I was working with summer company making decent money 20an hour plus commission installing dog fences. I have been doing this summer since 2012. I asked a couple years ago if my boss wanted a business partner and was willing to pay a buy in(I figured an IF franchise would be worth at least half million dollars. to hopefully share profits. I believe that he was netting well over a 2million a year, while I was making like 35k a summer.

    This summer I came to realization that I was losing money by working this job, and started getting some nagging physical problems in my arms, I also started practicing FIRE in my late 20s but with really aggressive trading. I was also hoping my coworkers would get a raise by my absence. I made the call early when I got in a shouting match with customer about the safety of how this guy envisioned his fence.

    I now am full time day trading, after day trading casual with out my mind fully on it for year. Fuck working, you will never make real money working, you have to take it, its all the better to try to take it from the people who have fucked over this whole country.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    I am an IC and do consulting work. I was approached about a month ago for a project that I didn't really want. I submitted a bid that is 4x what I normally charge, they didn't even blink.

    Last week they sent me a contract that was 9+ pages and cautioned that I should have it reviewed by my legal council. I countered that I don't retain legal council and any contract that is so complex that it requires review is too much for me, with great respect, thanks but no thanks.

    Today they countered by signing my 3 page proposal and telling me to just send an invoice every month and they will pay.

    I could get used to this.
    Ha ha, that's awesome man. I have negotiated hundreds of contracts in my book publishing career and it always comes down to who needs who more. And sometimes I don't even give a fuck about their book, I just need to hit my revenue targets, and this no-name author has no idea how lucky they are they came to me at that exact time of the year when I was desperate. But the real big wigs do exactly as you did: they don't even look at the contract I send them, they just send me the contract THEY want to sign. I had one guy literally take my contract and cut it up with scissors, tape it back together, and send it back signed about ten pages shorter than what I sent him. And of course those ten pages were all the stuff that drastically favors the publisher lol. But I let him do it because I wanted his book on my list.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
    ^^^ There's plenty of people to fill the good jobs. Just not the crummy ones like retail, restaurant, child care, medical, service, maintenance, construction, delivery, office, etc.
    Um, that has to be more than 80%, maybe 90%, of the jobs in the country.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Basically we're experiencing a quiet revolution, or an informal unionizing of the workforce as a whole.
    exactly

    pretty much as soon as these boomers go suck a dick we can move forward as a society

    a huge chunk of the work force has given up they live in their parents basement they live in the fifth wheel on grandmas property they are on disability (heck I did alittle research and found out I can get on disability Winning!) they play video games surf the internet post on facebook and educate themselves on vaccines and how socialism is evil

    drugs and alcohol are rotting our society at an all time high right now but everyone looks the other way and doesn't notice it cause it's all legal prescribed or you walk in a store and buy it weed suddenly went from mexican ditch weed that got you buzzed to edibles that can put you into a comatosed high just like popping an oxy wtf?

    I ran an ad lately looking for help, it was a mess people showing up half drunk to an interview, others telling me what they won't do and can't do vs what they want to do, hired a few and fired a couple after a week people drinking during the day just to maintain not to get fucked up they wait till 4 to start getting fucked up

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    I ran an ad lately looking for help, it was a mess people showing up half drunk to an interview, others telling me what they won't do and can't do vs what they want to do, hired a few and fired a couple after a week people drinking during the day just to maintain not to get fucked up they wait till 4 to start getting fucked up
    Would freaking love a hidden camera setup with fastfred interviewing prospective candidates who didn't meet his standards. That shit could be a whole utube channel all by itself.
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    ...drinking during the day just to maintain not to get fucked up they wait till 4 to start getting fucked up
    Well that's always been a thing. I used to work near a bar in DC that opens at 7:30 and the guys in suits with briefcases were lined up out front every morning waiting for them to open the door so they could go to work without shaking.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwacka View Post
    I guess I am part of this. I was working with summer company making decent money 20an hour plus commission installing dog fences. I have been doing this summer since 2012. I asked a couple years ago if my boss wanted a business partner and was willing to pay a buy in(I figured an IF franchise would be worth at least half million dollars. to hopefully share profits. I believe that he was netting well over a 2million a year, while I was making like 35k a summer.

    This summer I came to realization that I was losing money by working this job, and started getting some nagging physical problems in my arms, I also started practicing FIRE in my late 20s but with really aggressive trading. I was also hoping my coworkers would get a raise by my absence. I made the call early when I got in a shouting match with customer about the safety of how this guy envisioned his fence.

    I now am full time day trading, after day trading casual with out my mind fully on it for year. Fuck working, you will never make real money working, you have to take it, its all the better to try to take it from the people who have fucked over this whole country.
    Full time day trading ... that plan scares the fuck outta me. Best of luck to ya man.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vt-Freeheel View Post
    25 billion into building childcare facilities? Who is going to build this out? Where are the extra materials coming from? Are there 10s of thousands of qualified people to staff them?

    This whole multi trillion dollar bill keeps talking about millions of jobs when there doesn't seem to be enough bodies to fill the ones that we already have.
    I've been wondering the same. Surely people smarter than me have this figured out, right?

  25. #150
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    Oh there are plenty of people available to work and fill all the current openings. It's just going to take more than the current offering pay and benefits packages to convince them it's worth their while. If these infrastructures come with government pay, government benefits, and government pensions welcome back BOOMING MIDDLE CLASS. Sucks for the small (and large?) businesses that can't compete with that and still have CEOs earning ridiculously more than the folks churning out the actual product..

    Gotta admit though it must have been nice to be able to pay people $10-$20/hr with crappy or no health insurance to do the dirty work you won't roll up your sleeves and do yourself..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

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