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  1. #576
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    I'm just here to state that I got lucky a few times. And have an organized girlfriend /wife who helped me.
    Oh that and a free university education helped, like a lot .

    Otherwise I'd be working shit jobs for some asshole boss like I did the 3 months after uni and before my teacher in training began. It was awesome to get fired on the last day. "If you don't do that the way I want, you can go." ( which was "throw the old wood from the old huts in the container", which I had just done. He just wanted me to read his mind because he meant I should've played tetris with the mouldy logs with the rusty nails sticking out to save container space.
    I left and said "nah I'm good. C u. " his reply was " But you can't come back after Christmas to help disassemble the Christmas market, or ever again!!!. To which I replied: I don't intend to )
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  2. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Sure. Curiosity and interest are gifts, too. Powerful ones. If you could give your kid a million bucks or give them curiosity and interest, which would you give him?
    Curiosity and interest, I've mentioned that a bunch of times.

    An intrinsic difference is that some kinds of work, those driven by a sense of meaning and purpose is a reward in itself, one in which money is a byproduct. That is bound up in whatever "worth" means, hopefully one outside of a purely financial one, one which is more internally defined.

    In my time, circulating among the wealthy of Milwaukee, the Uileins, the Chapmans, Harnischfegers, the Pabsts, the Vogels, all families of inherited wealth, lots of them with some exception had far over inflated sense of self worth and importance. By contrast, the members of the physics department, the math department and the UWM as a whole did not have the vibe of intrinsic value, but were generally a lot more interesting and happy people.

    So I think a sense of curiosity, of interest, of meaning and purpose, no matter how illusory, is worth a lot provided, again, that it's not a rationalization for sneering or being an asshole.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  3. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Curiosity and interest, I've mentioned that a bunch of times.

    An intrinsic difference is that some kinds of work, those driven by a sense of meaning and purpose is a reward in itself, one in which money is a byproduct. That is bound up in whatever "worth" means, hopefully one outside of a purely financial one, one which is more internally defined.

    In my time, circulating among the wealthy of Milwaukee, the Uileins, the Chapmans, Harnischfegers, the Pabsts, the Vogels, all families of inherited wealth, lots of them with some exception had far over inflated sense of self worth and importance. By contrast, the members of the physics department, the math department and the UWM as a whole did not have the vibe of intrinsic value, but were generally a lot more interesting and happy people.

    So I think a sense of curiosity, of interest, of meaning and purpose, no matter how illusory, is worth a lot provided, again, that it's not a rationalization for sneering or being an asshole.
    100%

    Its a damn shame that those wealthy folk didnt learn curiosity and interest, right? If we could find a way to better value that and fix that, theyd have a better quality of life, and I bet those around them would be better off too.
    focus.

  4. #579
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    Well, here we are on the cusp of a budget that would require the wealthiest 1,000 US citizens to actually start paying some taxes.. Waiting for Kyrsten Sinema to Lieberman it... Of all the people to be bought.. SMDH.. Irony of killing the biggest jobs bill in decades by crying "but the job creators shouldn't be taxed"..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  5. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Well, here we are on the cusp of a budget that would require the wealthiest 1,000 US citizens to actually start paying some taxes.. Waiting for Kyrsten Sinema to Lieberman it... Of all the people to be bought.. SMDH.. Irony of killing the biggest jobs bill in decades by crying "but the job creators shouldn't be taxed"..
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  6. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Exactly.. and everything they say about taxes and wage regulation was proven wrong by Clinton and others.. FDR FTW..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  7. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    of course they all dont, some just tell you your tongue is enough
    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Keep digging.


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    Thats what she said.

  8. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I don’t know if this is real, but this is why.

    [IMG]FBsWjKzUUAIofWd.jpg[/IMG]


    Anyone know how to embed this? Obviously IMG tags don’t work…

    Mod edit:
    Attachment 389293

    Attachment 389294

    ^^^ this is the OP. it has nothing to do with the recent exchange about 'gifts' ...


    congratulations on your "gifts".

    I thought this thread was about people leaving the workforce due to vaccination mandates,
    it was sobering to read that All of 300 of an emergency response agency had tested positive for covid in the last two years ;
    similarly sobering to read of someone who now appears to be experiencing long-term effects, continue to defy vaccination for 'freedom' .


    I believe the modified dose vaccine is Safe for children ( not 'perfectly safe', but provides important immunity that I would not leave to the outcome of infection), and will continue to promote vaccination. ...

    I hope with Time, many of the people who find themselves Out of jobs as a result of this will be able to return to the workforce;
    there are some interesting posts up-thread about the hiring practices of current times...


    ... thanks... tj

    postscript -

    ' one just cannot persuade some people... '

    rather than trying convince my friends who are opposed to vaccination to get vaccinated,
    I am simply asking them - as a friend who cares about them - I am simply asking them to get vaccinated. ...

    March first, my sixty year old friend who recently survived covid will be asked.

    'We' will find a way through this. Thank you. skiJ

  9. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    congratulations on your "gifts".

    I thought this thread was about people leaving the workforce due to vaccination mandates,
    it was sobering to read that All of 300 of an emergency response agency had tested positive for covid in the last two years ;
    similarly sobering to read of someone who now appears to be experiencing long-term effects, continue to defy vaccination for 'freedom' .

    I believe the modified dose vaccine is Safe for children ( not 'perfectly safe', but provides important immunity that I would not leave to the outcome of infection), and will continue to promote vaccination. ...

    I hope with Time, many of the people who find themselves Out of jobs as a result of this will be able to return to the workforce;
    there are some interesting posts up-thread about the hiring practices of current times...


    ... thanks... tj
    No, the resignation phenomenon isnt really about mandates. Theres some of that too, sure.but classism seems to be an interesting subtext to the overarching debate.
    focus.

  10. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    You win by winning, not by others losing.
    To win, others must lose. You can, and should, want others to lose by less though. Or, you can redefine what "winning" means. But nothing is preordained. It will be the rare (or flat out super unlucky) person who works their ass off who i wouldnt describe as successful, whether that be financially, spiritually, familially, etc or a combination thereof. It will likely take years and significant sacrifice, but consistent hard-ass work almost always gets you a life to be proud of. and i do truly believe there is a ton of truth in the adage "Luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparation"... work hard, do the right things and when opportunities present themselves luck will be on your side (not always, but much more often than someone who doesnt consistently work hard and do the right things). Its changing the odds to your favor, not ensuring an outcome.

    I think the big problems in society are materialism, a diminished work ethic with increased expectations of what "success" is (expecting more for less), and the rejection of delayed gratification.

  11. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    No, the resignation phenomenon isn’t really about mandates. There’s some of that too, sure….but classism seems to be an interesting subtext to the overarching debate.
    ( reserved for follow-up ) tj

    ( M. you probably need to explain how you believe the Seattle Firefighters with eighteen years on-the-job who are ( being fired / 'resigning' ) Because they are unwilling to be vaccinated represent "classism", because I sure don't see it.

    If they were not Required to be vaccinated, they would not be losing their jobs ( and the Firefighters and First Responders seem to me to be the one group that have largely maintained their base of Respect through this process. )

    so please do tell me(,) how they would still be losing their jobs(,) and how this is about "classism". Thank you. tj )

  12. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    No, the resignation phenomenon isnt really about mandates. Theres some of that too, sure.but classism seems to be an interesting subtext to the overarching debate.
    We have a lot of people leaving the hospital and most of them are leaving because they have a shitty job and/or they can make the same or more elsewhere. Its a coincidence that its happening with the mandates.


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  13. #588
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    The Great Resignation 21

    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    ( reserved for follow-up ) tj

    ( M. you probably need to explain how you believe the Seattle Firefighters with eighteen years on-the-job who are ( being fired / 'resigning' ) Because they are unwilling to be vaccinated represent "classism", because I sure don't see it.

    If they were not Required to be vaccinated, they would not be losing their jobs ( and the Firefighters and First Responders seem to me to be the one group that have largely maintained their base of Respect through this process. )

    so please do tell me(,) how they would still be losing their jobs(,) and how this is about "classism". Thank you. tj )
    Im just talking about The Great Resignationwhich is what this thread is about. Its not really about vaccine mandates. While its happening at many tiers of our society, the lower tiers of the service industries seems most impacted. Im drawing a link to the classism that is being exposed by this phenomenon, and its interesting how this might redraw the lines a bit. But there are many other interesting elements and tangents under discussion here as well.

    We can talk about vaccine mandates too. Shit, this is almost post 600. We can talk about whatever you want. You seem to want.

    I wonder if there is room on the TGRz for a vaccine mandates thread?
    focus.

  14. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    ( reserved for follow-up ) tj

    ( M. you probably need to explain how you believe the Seattle Firefighters with eighteen years on-the-job who are ( being fired / 'resigning' ) Because they are unwilling to be vaccinated represent "classism", because I sure don't see it.

    If they were not Required to be vaccinated, they would not be losing their jobs ( and the Firefighters and First Responders seem to me to be the one group that have largely maintained their base of Respect through this process. )

    so please do tell me(,) how they would still be losing their jobs(,) and how this is about "classism". Thank you. tj )
    Jayzus H Christ, please learn to type like the rest of us.

  15. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    To win, others must lose. You can, and should, want others to lose by less though.
    Or you could go with an abundance mindset and realize others can win too.

  16. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Or you could go with an abundance mindset and realize others can win too.
    Wow, we agree.


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  17. #592
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    The Great Resignation 21

    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    To win, others must lose. You can, and should, want others to lose by less though. Or, you can redefine what "winning" means. But nothing is preordained. It will be the rare (or flat out super unlucky) person who works their ass off who i wouldnt describe as successful, whether that be financially, spiritually, familially, etc or a combination thereof. It will likely take years and significant sacrifice, but consistent hard-ass work almost always gets you a life to be proud of. and i do truly believe there is a ton of truth in the adage "Luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparation"... work hard, do the right things and when opportunities present themselves luck will be on your side (not always, but much more often than someone who doesnt consistently work hard and do the right things). Its changing the odds to your favor, not ensuring an outcome.

    I think the big problems in society are materialism, a diminished work ethic with increased expectations of what "success" is (expecting more for less), and the rejection of delayed gratification.
    I think we can be a little more inclusive with our winning, and its as much a matter of focus as anything else. There are winners and losers, but to function effectively within society, lets focus on winning first, and second on bringing our peers/team/family/neighbors with us.

    As to the rest: philosophically we disagree, but substantively we dont. It only matters inasmuch as you respect those others youre sharing your journey with. Your work ethic is a great thing and society has an interest in encouraging it and incenting it. It would be an odd and broken society that completely left hard work out of the equation when it handed out rewards. I cant imagine such a one really gathering much steam or lasting long. So.OF COURSE hard work has rewards.

    Recognizing that incentive structure for what it is also encourages us to look at other incentive structures that are at cross purposes to what we really want to accomplish, or which ones are dated and steeped in misunderstanding, mythology, or misinformation.
    focus.

  18. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    No, the resignation phenomenon isnt really about mandates. Theres some of that too, sure.but classism seems to be an interesting subtext to the overarching debate.
    https://hbr.org/2021/09/who-is-drivi...at-resignation

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-unacceptable/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...fter-quitting/

    at the point at which this thread came to my attention ten days ago, the popular topics in this thread were self-checkouts, Financial collapse on historic scale, and extending the National debt. also in the news at the time ( October 18th ) were people who were facing job loss due to failure to be vaccinated for covid. One of the ideas raised was that these people were effectively 'resigning' by failing to be vaccinated.
    I honestly thought this thread was about people leaving jobs due to covid - including vaccination mandates, and for some it may be ( Nick Rolovich ) .


    I recognize that many are here for the witty banter - and some are here to exchange insults. it is an anonymous outdoor adventure forum. . .

    I was trying to nudge the discussion back toward 'jobs in 2021' which probably isn't necessary on page 24.

    interest in "classism" is acknowledged.


    up-thread :

    QUOTE=::: :::;6435877]Stepping waaaay back...

    There is a fundamental problem with our form of government: it is incapable of understanding the complexity of the current state of the country.

    Senators & Congresspeople are unable to understand the various industries, trades & infrastructures (financial, physical, cultural, research, natural resource, educational, etc) in any substantive way because the fields are so varied, specialized and vast. To come to grips with understanding & guiding all these forces in society is overwhelming to a tiny staff tasked with doing that. It has become absurd and naive. In a way, we have outgrown our form of management.

    It isn't just voting in a "businessman" or a "progressive" or a "former military" candidate...the people who go with good intentions are overwhelmed.

    Even if we can disconnect the lobbyists from the pipeline of researching/writing/influencing legislation, we still have the problem that the government is ill-prepared to consider the multivariable issues in any substantive way independent of that lobby crutch. Some sort of shift in our management expectations has to happen, but that is a seismic change in and of itself.

    Add to this the idealist expectation that we "just change it," as if it won't involve a complete reconstruction of our understanding of government. Idealized "progress" isn't possible the way we do things now. It's just talking & banging our heads against the same rock.

    Incremental shifting of values will slowly tip the bow of this insanely large ship towards a different horizon, but much too slowly to make substantive changes in our daily lives...[/QUOTE]


    Thank you. skiJ

  19. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    https://hbr.org/2021/09/who-is-drivi...at-resignation

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-unacceptable/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...fter-quitting/

    at the point at which this thread came to my attention ten days ago, the popular topics in this thread were self-checkouts, Financial collapse on historic scale, and extending the National debt. also in the news at the time ( October 18th ) were people who were facing job loss due to failure to be vaccinated for covid. One of the ideas raised was that these people were effectively 'resigning' by failing to be vaccinated.
    I honestly thought this thread was about people leaving jobs due to covid - including vaccination mandates, and for some it may be ( Nick Rolovich ) .

    I recognize that many are here for the witty banter - and some are here to exchange insults. it is an anonymous outdoor adventure forum. . .

    I was trying to nudge the discussion back toward 'jobs in 2021' which probably isn't necessary on page 24.

    interest in "classism" is acknowledged.


    up-thread :

    QUOTE=::: :::;6435877]Stepping waaaay back...

    Thank you. skiJ
    Surejust taking the hard work tangent for what it was. And good articles linked above. And it really isnt so anonymous these days. Not for those who have been here for 20+ years.

    Its an employees market. Not sure employers have really caught up to that concept and maybe it wont be sustained. As to your firefighters, while I dont know that I still need to explain anything, theyre in a pretty good spot to find a job, I suspect.
    focus.

  20. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    Jayzus H Christ, please learn to type like the rest of us.
    Seems like he certainly has something to say but I just dont know cause I cant read the weirdness. I guess style here is more important than the message??
    "boobs just make the world better really" - Woodsy

  21. #596
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    The medium is the message

  22. #597
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    I thot " the great resignation " is about people who left jobs in the covid shutdown and didnt come back mostly but not exclusively in the lower end jobs ?

    Vax refusal or hesitancy is about people who have/ had jobs but they are losing those jobs cuz they won't jab ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    To win, others must lose. You can, and should, want others to lose by less though. Or, you can redefine what "winning" means. But nothing is preordained. It will be the rare (or flat out super unlucky) person who works their ass off who i wouldnt describe as successful, whether that be financially, spiritually, familially, etc or a combination thereof. It will likely take years and significant sacrifice, but consistent hard-ass work almost always gets you a life to be proud of. and i do truly believe there is a ton of truth in the adage "Luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparation"... work hard, do the right things and when opportunities present themselves luck will be on your side (not always, but much more often than someone who doesnt consistently work hard and do the right things). Its changing the odds to your favor, not ensuring an outcome.

    I think the big problems in society are materialism, a diminished work ethic with increased expectations of what "success" is (expecting more for less), and the rejection of delayed gratification.
    You ever worked retail? Or stuff like meatpacking? Doing that shit day in and day out is hard, but they make shit. There's also plenty of growth that isn't a zero sum game. To make money, you need someone that will pay for your product or service, but that doesn't mean they chose yours instead of a competing product - you can create new segments or opportunities. The foundational issue in many cases is the lack of available disposable income to purchase more goods and services - this is why we should tax the shit out of billionaires and millionaires - they're absolutely garbage at spending their money compared to all other income segments.

  24. #599
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    The Great Resignation 21

    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    You ever worked retail? Or stuff like meatpacking? Doing that shit day in and day out is hard, but they make shit. There's also plenty of growth that isn't a zero sum game. To make money, you need someone that will pay for your product or service, but that doesn't mean they chose yours instead of a competing product - you can create new segments or opportunities. The foundational issue in many cases is the lack of available disposable income to purchase more goods and services - this is why we should tax the shit out of billionaires and millionaires - they're absolutely garbage at spending their money compared to all other income segments.
    Also, this.

    I know plenty of people who work their asses off for $15/hour and have been doing it for decades. They frequently lack the skillset to do things that pay better, whether that stems from lack of innate abilities or poor upbringing or something else, I have no idea. They want and need more.

    Turns out the people with the skillset to do things that pay better are also better able to design systems that provide outsized rewards for themselves. Doesnt matter if its the chicken or the egg, it is. And this gonna get mine winning at the expense of you losing mentality drives a lot of that.
    focus.

  25. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    You ever worked retail? Or stuff like meatpacking? Doing that shit day in and day out is hard, but they make shit. There's also plenty of growth that isn't a zero sum game. To make money, you need someone that will pay for your product or service, but that doesn't mean they chose yours instead of a competing product - you can create new segments or opportunities. The foundational issue in many cases is the lack of available disposable income to purchase more goods and services - this is why we should tax the shit out of billionaires and millionaires - they're absolutely garbage at spending their money compared to all other income segments.
    Yes, i worked retail (and that wasnt hard at all at any of the places i worked). Also worked restaurants (was fairly hard). Never worked in a manufacturing or meat plant though. And simply showing up on time consistently made me a star employee at the retail jobs. The utter lack of fucks given about the job by grown men and women (many with kids) working beside me was fairly shocking... but at the same time made sense as to why they were still working $8/hr entry jobs in their 30s. But, to your point about disposable income- these folks all had much nicer clothes, cell phones, shoes, etc than me. they ate out on their breaks/lunches, etc. Meanwhile i was pinching pennies HARD eating canned chili and baked potatoes so i could save money. People have disposable income, many(most) are fucking terrible at spending it on stupid shit instead of saving or paying for online classes, etc.

    Have you worked those jobs? When/if you did, how often did people show up late, or not at all, or not care to even do the simplest things like call in sick, or be sober? IME, constantly. How many knew they had dead end job prospects currently, but made little to no effort to improve those prospects through education or additional training? I worked graveyard at a mega chain gym after college (during the recession) and was one of the few non-trainers there who took up mgmt on the offer to pay for anyones personal trainer classes and certification. People didnt want to give up their free time to attend the classes and test.

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