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  1. #151
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    There are plenty of people who would love to move to the U.S. and work most of these low paying thankless jobs.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted reborn View Post
    There are plenty of people who would love to move to the U.S. and work most of these low paying thankless jobs.
    Nowhere for them to live though.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayPowHound View Post
    Link? I've seen some great quitting videos but never this one. Prove its real!
    And the New York Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/n...attendant.html
    “The best argument in favour of a 90% tax rate on the rich is a five-minute chat with the average rich person.”

    - Winston Churchill, paraphrased.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Universal pre-K is picking up steam at the local, state and federal levels. Lots of local preschool programs exist, CO passed "universal" pre-k for 4 year olds (universal...because it's only 10hrs paid per week which is meaningless unless programs can find other ways to supplement for the kids.) The problem is that doing it for 3-4 year olds are the cheaper ones to care for (and the only place where any provider is making a profit) so if the policy/implementation isn't careful it can produce a preserve incentive structure which will further jack up the cost of infant and toddler care. And it is infant and toddler care supply that nationally is way below what parents wish.

    At the end of the day, affordable and reliable high quality child care needs massive subsidization if we want it. And employers want it because it produces a larger pool of eligible labor which means they can keep wages down. Without it, people will choose to exit the labor force, constraining labor supply and pushing wages up.
    Haven't you made the case for employer-funded subsidies? Someone pays and who better than a beneficiary. I'd bet a lot of people would keep swallowing their shit sandwich if they didn't have to scramble for childcare.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Haven't you made the case for employer-funded subsidies? Someone pays and who better than a beneficiary. I'd bet a lot of people would keep swallowing their shit sandwich if they didn't have to scramble for childcare.
    Oh, I fully believe that employers should bear the costs -- be it through direct subsidies, increased wages, or taxes. It's just that I don't expect it to ever happen at a scale that makes a sizeable impact on the lives of the vast majority of families through direct subsidies or wages.

    To be fair though -- we're all the beneficiaries of early childhood education. The economic return on investment is more efficient than most any other mechanism of social welfare. https://heckmanequation.org/

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    At the end of the day, affordable and reliable high quality child care needs massive subsidization if we want it. And employers want it because it produces a larger pool of eligible labor which means they can keep wages down. Without it, people will choose to exit the labor force, constraining labor supply and pushing wages up.
    Reckon it needs to go further than subsidisation. Make it same as public schools - 100% publicly funded, all kids can attend. Partial subsidies incentivise daycares to raise fees in perpetuity, plus wages blow because all the reasons listed already. Where I'm at, we get government subsidised daycare based on income, and it's better than a kick in the balls but still not great. Some people on low incomes get almost full subsidy paid by govt, most get 50% of fees paid by govt, the high earners get little to no subsidy. You can already guess how people game that. On top of that, the daycares will raise fees as they see fit, knowing full well the govt will still pay the same % but of a bigger daily figure.

    Make 'em all public, and let the rich pay for the fancy ones where they have a Michelin hat chef pack you a gourmet dinner to take home after spending the day teaching Alaignnnayh how to speak Spanish to the housekeeper and laugh at the poors.

  7. #157
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    It's not such an outlandish idea to just take care of your own kids till they're five years old.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    It's not such an outlandish idea to just take care of your own kids till they're five years old.
    Cost of living makes that nearly impossible for the average american living where the jobs are, i.e. in the major centers in the US.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #159
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    Also, in a fast moving tech world, 5 years out of the job force is enough to barely be relevant.
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    Cost of living makes that nearly impossible for the average american living where the jobs are, i.e. in the major centers in the US.
    I get that, but when people tout the benefits of publicly funded daycare/preschool, they seem to overlook the benefits of being cared for by your actual parents. And I'm not judging, we had 2 kids in daycare at one point.

    But apparently a lot of people are making the choice to care for their little ones these days instead of work, as has been made clear in this thread. Somehow they are affording to do so. Maybe still living off stimulus checks, I dunno. And the $300/kid/month the fed is currently doling out as some sort of tax credit to combat child poverty. Somehow they are making it work, or so it seems.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Also, in a fast moving tech world, 5 years out of the job force is enough to barely be relevant.
    Well clearly we need fewer tech workers and more baristas. I got all the tech I need but can't get a coffee at the local Starbucks because the place is closed half the time due to no staff.

  12. #162
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    Baristas need pre-care, too.
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  13. #163
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    Even if a parent has the time and money to take care of their kid full time until they are 5, the kid would benefit from some kind of early childhood education program, even if it is only part time (building social and emotional skills). So the idea of government funded early education isn't only about allowing the parent to work.

    Also, how many parents who are staying home taking care of their kids are actually spending 100% of their time focused on the kid, and not just parking them in front of the TV while they take care of shit around the house.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    It's not such an outlandish idea to just take care of your own kids till they're five years old.
    Almost every other western democracy disagrees.

    I’ve heard a lot of economists say one of the biggest things we could do to increase productivity and benefit poor children is to have the state provide childcare and early childhood education.

    California is about to test this out for pre-k starting soon.

  15. #165
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    Yeah, ask people who took a few years off to care for kids how easy it was to jump back in to the professional world.

    And as altasnob says, early childhood education programs offer great benefits beyond just letting the parents work. While a kid is not better off in 45 hours of day care a week from 3 months of age, that kid is better off with at least some ECE program. And while mom and dad are no doubt the most important people in a baby/toddler/preschooler's upbringing, our society totally undervalues the benefits a professional caregiver can bring. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing with the kiddo, I muddled my way through it, reading what I could about childhood development and whatnot. But the teachers at my kid's school (and yes, the good ones are "teachers" even for the infants)? Holy shit were they good. And seriously underpaid for what they brought to the table.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "I'd eat a bag of Dicks and wash it down with a Coke any day." - iceman

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Yeah, ask people who took a few years off to care for kids how easy it was to jump back in to the professional world.
    .
    More importantly, ask people who took a few years off to care for their kids if they regretted it.
    I bet none do.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Almost every other western democracy disagrees.

    I’ve heard a lot of economists say one of the biggest things we could do to increase productivity and benefit poor children is to have the state provide childcare and early childhood education.

    California is about to test this out for pre-k starting soon.
    Basically saying most parents are idiots and the State needs to take over as soon as possible for the sake of the kid and "productivity." Seems weird but okay, if it works elsewhere then let's try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Baristas need pre-care, too.
    Unless they're teenagers, which is something that doesn't get much play in this discussion but could be a factor. "In 1979, nearly 60% of American teenagers were employed, an all-time high. Today, just over one-third, or 35%, of teens between the ages of 16 and 19 are part of the workforce."

    ^And that was in 2019 so likely even less now...probably a lot less, with covid.

  18. #168
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    What if they are teens with no parental support? Sounds like they would need it even more.
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  19. #169
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    I have a salient memory of the other side of this: During the 2008/2009 recession I had just ended my fire career and had applied to over 500 jobs, Places were getting thousands of applicants for any open job. I got one interview out of those hundreds of applications, busted my ass doing testing, jumping through hoops and they told me to keep whatever job I currently had because they didn’t have much work and all the jobs were one day at a time and that I may have to travel up to a few hundred miles away at my own expense.
    Meanwhile, I traveled back to Saginaw Michigan for a funeral. The people working at restaurants, the front desk at the hotel, etc…they were so squared-away, smart people, working hard. I remember realizing that was because things were so desperate and ugly that these were way overqualified people hanging onto any income they could find.

    So…I dunno, it seems like the normal state we got used to had some components of desperation and grim struggle driving it all, and as frustrating as it is when there isn’t enough staff in a restaurant, I think I prefer this to when they could pick from 300 applicants and get a fry cook with a masters degree in electrical engineering or some shit.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Basically saying most parents are idiots and the State needs to take over as soon as possible for the sake of the kid and "productivity." Seems weird but okay, if it works elsewhere then let's try it.
    Not because they are idiots, but because they aren’t teachers. Look at it another way. The rich pay for people to start teaching their 3, 4 and 5 year olds to read, basic math, etc. That’s an advantage that has lasting effects.

  21. #171
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    As someone who has family in early childhood education, it irritates me to no end that people do not see early childhood education workers as teachers. Of course, some "daycare centers" are just "we will keep your kid alive centers". But anyone who has sent their kid to a really good ECE facility knows what I am talking about. My kid is so much better off for having gone to her preschool, even if I had the financial ability to take off those 5 years I could not have done as good a job as those professionals did.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "I'd eat a bag of Dicks and wash it down with a Coke any day." - iceman

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile View Post
    More importantly, ask people who took a few years off to care for their kids if they regretted it.
    I bet none do.
    Some people aren't wired for it though. I love my kids, but they're better people because of the excellent ECE programs they went through and the socialization they got. Also, no way we could afford the better school district on a single income.
    As far as other points:
    1. Individual vs broad subsidies/programs - making subsidies paid by businesses with parents of young children doesn't work as small businesses will discriminate against them like crazy.
    2. Teens in the workforce - first, no one wants to hire them because weird hours and additional protections, while for kids you don't get into the best schools by working, but through sports, charity work and other extracurriculars.

  23. #173
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    That 6 months of Paternity leave and 8 weeks of paid (non sick leave) vacation would go a long way towards the parental-child bonding gaps..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  24. #174
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    I must be of the last generation to grow up like this, but I didn’t have day care, my mom just brought me to all these older ladies’ houses in the neighborhood when I was little, and paid college and neighborhood kids to watch me when I was a little older.

    I think people don’t really do that anymore, and it’s maybe a shame. I had a real potpourri of different households and stuff from that process. I drive through town and just remember some houses: that house had a comfortable basement with couches and stuff, that one had a big fish tank, that one was a huge mess with clothes and toys everywhere….etc.

  25. #175
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    colorado voted on a family leave bill last year and it actually passed
    it was played out by many as socialism and it is going to cost business owners and the economy too much people are going to abuse the system and the gov't will not be able to manage it property
    at least it past, a great step in the right direction, sure it will cost me money

    it's messed up how demonized "welfare" has gotten

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