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  1. #826
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    32
    I am not saying use snow science to justify skiing on depth hoar. Avoidance is clearly the best strategy. I'm saying use snow science to monitor weak layers to tell when they are "likely healed" in your words.

  2. #827
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    616
    Sure sounds good, wasn't trying to attack you or anything.

  3. #828
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,820
    I'd rather wait in a long lines inbounds this coming week than deal with the consequences of thinking I'm capable of safely navigating this snowpack at upper elevations. The competition for first tracks continues to push backcountry users to make more aggressive decisions but it is still December and it seems like we'll have a good base for a long season that will hopefully have a bunch of days with great snow and a more manageable snowpack.
    Three fundamentals of every extreme skier, total disregard for personal saftey, amphetamines, and lots and lots of malt liquor......-jack handy

  4. #829
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sandy
    Posts
    5,146
    Quote Originally Posted by soul_skier View Post
    I'd rather wait in a long lines inbounds this coming week than deal with the consequences of thinking I'm capable of safely navigating this snowpack at upper elevations. The competition for first tracks continues to push backcountry users to make more aggressive decisions but it is still December and it seems like we'll have a good base for a long season that will hopefully have a bunch of days with great snow and a more manageable snowpack.
    +1 million.

    I get excited when we have a 100" base, calm weather, and green on the avy rose. That's when I take days off and get after it. A PWL, big storms, and crowds make for a mess even at the resorts.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  5. #830
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    none
    Posts
    8,320
    What are the odds that PC Patrol walks in the next 72 hours?

  6. #831
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wasatch Back: 7000'
    Posts
    12,950
    That would be precious. They should. $17/hr. For the work they do, that is just obscene. Vail would deserve it, and it would have no one to blame other than itself.
    “How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world? I don’t know, go ask Rory Gallagher”. — Jimi Hendrix

  7. #832
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    2,897
    Vail has what, 1.4 billion or something cash in hand? And arguing over a $2 increase in hourly wage for a overall small number of salaries. I'd call it unbelievable, but it's sadly very believable.

  8. #833
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    the LCC
    Posts
    1,161
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchPee View Post
    This is all really good info, and I can't emphasize the importance enough for the development of the inner consciousness of awareness for the snow one develops after an extended period of poking one's stick in the snow. In fact, I'm guilty of relying on experience far more often than objectivity (can be dangerous sometimes as we are human after all). And Jimmy, that bag of experience you harbor is a beautiful thing that cannot be bought overnight in a pro 1 or whatever rubric the self perceived avalanche authorities that be decide to structure for us.

    However, the last two years, and likely years to come, have thrown us some anomalies and with exponentially more people poking around them there hills, the anomalies are going to be encountered more frequently. Flat and simple, depth hoar needs to be assessed in a full scale pit. Monitoring temperature gradients and visual confirmation of sintering is really the only way to be certain. In over 15 years of poking around these mountains, I still feel like a complete goober sometimes in what I predict vs actuality. I think it's really important to take the extra step this year and thoroughly research. We owe it to ourselves, SAR, friends/family, to make better decisions and have the humility to approach these more tumultuous years with a beginner state of mind.
    Good points as always, Mitch.
    A tool we have in the ski areas to test for both avalanches and healed snow is explosives.
    Helluva tool for both.
    My snow pits are mostly measured in 2 pounders.
    Difference is that within the ski area boundaries we are actively hunting avalanches.
    And when touring I am actively avoiding them.
    I don't think a single pit should be a big factor in the decision to ski a slope.
    You all might be surprised at how conservative I am in the backcountry when deep slab can be tickled out.
    I've never had a problem waiting for stability...
    Time spent skiing cannot be deducted from one's life.

  9. #834
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Summit Park, UT
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shredhead View Post
    What are the odds that PC Patrol walks in the next 72 hours?
    Here here! for a PCSP walkout to really stick it to VR.

  10. #835
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Ogden
    Posts
    9,080
    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    That would be precious. They should. $17/hr. For the work they do, that is just obscene. Vail would deserve it, and it would have no one to blame other than itself.
    Tough situation for the patrollers. If you’re making $15 an hour you probably can’t afford to miss any hours off of your check. But it’s likely the only way they’ll get what they deserve. Hell, not even what they deserve, just what they’re asking for.

  11. #836
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Funland
    Posts
    1,810
    Mar, thanks for explaining for thought process. At the end of the day, people have different levels of experience and different calculated risk tolerances. I try to err on the conservative side, but I've made plenty of questionable decisions and likely will do it again. You likely have much more time waking around this country than I do. I certainly won't disagree that there's a hit of southerly in that aspect and that the Cadiff Bowl slide was a touch north.

    With a storm similar to February's on the horizon, lets all turn our textbooks back to the 20/21 thread, page 73, and hope people continue making good choices. Hopefully people took all the activity this past weekend as a wake up call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    ^^
    Very true. The overall rating (moderate/high/whatever) has to due with the likelihood of slides. If you don't contextualize it with predictability & level on consequence you're in for a rough awakening.

    I spend a fair amount of time skiing on considerable days when the main concerns are wind slabs and storm snow. I tend to regard those are predictable and manageable (within reason). By that I mean that you can (usually) tell where wind slabs tend to form based on wind patterns, they're (often) visible, you can (usually) approach them safely from above and trigger them on command via stomping at the top/edge, ski cuts, etc... Same goes for storm snow which, absent any risk of stepping down into older layers, tends so sluff/slide on the old snow below once the angle is sufficient. Again, none of this is absolute and a small wind pocket can fuck up your day even if you think you think have a perfect read on how it's going to behave. In general though a bad call under these circumstances doesn't carry an horribly severe penalty.

    If we're talking considerable danger in the context of a PWL though, all bets are off. There are no tools to manage deep slabs other than leaving them be. They're too stealth, too patient, and too mean. All the tricks I've learned for dealing with wind slabs and new snow are useless at best and create a false sense of confidence at worst. I want to think I'm smarter than a wind slab but I know with 100% certainty that I'm dumber than a deep slab. And I also know that if ones takes a shot a me it will do so with extreme prejudice and I'm not likely to walk away. So, in my book, a moderate day with a PWL is significantly more problematic a considerable or even high day with wind/new snow problems.

    The big issue in the Wasatch, and I think part of the reason we're seeing what we're seeing this season, is that we spend most of our seasons putzing around in a really user-friendly snowpack. It usually gives us good feedback, it's very clear with its warnings, and it requires a lot of provoking to react. We're so used to this that when we have to deal with a snowpack that isn't deeply sedated and responds to the slightest provocation shit hits the fan constantly. It won't stop until the WL is gone or bridged, or until everyone readjusts their perception based on reality vs historical data.

  12. #837
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Shredhead View Post
    What are the odds that PC Patrol walks in the next 72 hours?
    I was skinning up PC for exercise this AM and that same thought crossed my mind. Given the holiday crowds, the fact that Epic passholders don't have other options nearby, and the forecast, PC patrol going on strike would send a strong message and hit Vail where it hurts. How many families who spent $10k on a holiday ski trip, get a ton of fresh snow, and then can't go skiing because Vail refused to pay patrollers a living wage are going to leave and never come back if patrol goes on strike?
    Three fundamentals of every extreme skier, total disregard for personal saftey, amphetamines, and lots and lots of malt liquor......-jack handy

  13. #838
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Denial
    Posts
    2,556
    PC patrol, 100 inch storm coming, Christmas week, PWL. Shaping up to be a wild ride for the next few days!

    Sounded like Solitude was out bombing today, maybe they're getting ready to open some stuff?
    The whole human race is de evolving; it is due to birth control, smart people use birth control, and stupid people keep pooping out more stupid babies.

  14. #839
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    5
    how many patrollers, how many days, how many willing to cover their costs this week for said walk out? i'm in.

  15. #840
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    2,897
    no need for a gondola we already have a 98.6 travel ease: https://www.zrankings.com/ski-resorts/4-alta-ski-area

  16. #841
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Ogden
    Posts
    9,080
    Quote Originally Posted by glspi View Post
    how many patrollers, how many days, how many willing to cover their costs this week for said walk out? i'm in.
    I'm in as well.

    Although I do worry; what are the chances that Vail pulls a Ronald Reagan/Air Traffic Controller strike type situation?

  17. #842
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wasatch Back: 7000'
    Posts
    12,950
    From a bargaining point of view, it might be a good idea to threaten a strike beginning Friday unless demands are met by Thursday evening. Patrollers deserve and require a living wage to do what they do effectively.

    It was one thing to get paid minimum in the '70s-80s when lift tickets cost $10-15, and lessons were $35-50. It's another to treat them poorly when the price of a lift ticket costs ~$200+ and a lesson runs in the range between $350-$1000/day.
    “How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world? I don’t know, go ask Rory Gallagher”. — Jimi Hendrix

  18. #843
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    gamehendge
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by soul_skier View Post
    the fact that Epic passholders don't have other options nearby,

    Snowbasin (close enough for the people with cars). for 2 or 7 days depending on the epic pass. This would be a disaster for both resorts which would be awesome.

  19. #844
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by tBatt View Post
    Mar, thanks for explaining for thought process. ...I certainly won't disagree that there's a hit of southerly in that aspect and that the Cadiff Bowl slide was a touch north.
    ^gracias.

    Here are a couple of GE images with compass set at due north. There is a significant difference in aspect between what I would've considered safe to ski that day and what slid in Cardiff bowl. We're not just talking about "touches" of difference in apsect here... this "IS" the difference between Northerly and Southerly aspects. Aside from snowpack analysis... "terrain management", and "aspect" are other tools in the bag.

    Cardiff bowl
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    Cardiac
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    Above pic: everything above black line has a southern aspect/ with south double falline. everything below black line is due east and starts to wrap to the northern end of the compass.

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    not sure what the activity has been up there over the last few days but black line represents my comfort level until the PWL fully heals or a snowpit analysis before venturing further out into the bowl ...again anything beyond black line and your off the southern aspect to on due east to wrapping Northerly. ...Its quite amazing the different shapes Cardiac bowl takes on depending where your viewing it from

    I cant remember ever having to worry about a PWL on any southern aspect, like ever... typically its just new/old snow interface and wind slabs that cause trouble. Maybe some buried surface hoar but even that seems pretty rare for Southern aspects. Am I beating a dead horse? I enjoy the talk here. -peace.

  20. #845
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    bucks county pa
    Posts
    2,663
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Always remember that these patrollers put thier lives on the line to keep us safe and for Vail to be fucking them out of a couple of bucks makes me sick! I would love to see them (PCSP) walk but wonder how many can afford to walk let alone be Ronnie Reaganed should it go that way. Also what are the chances of Vail replacing that many patrollers quickly let alone the knowledge that many of the older patrollers bring to the table. Look at the knowledge not to mention great stories that Telefreewasatch brings to the table and others . I wish I was out there for this upcoming storm cycle. Getoutside always says to me “I am all about living” a motto that has stuck with me for years. No pow is worth ur life make smart choices get educated. Hope all has a great Christmas
    Sorry for side way pic
    always forward but never straight

  21. #846
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Driggs
    Posts
    689
    Quote Originally Posted by glspi View Post
    how many patrollers, how many days, how many willing to cover their costs this week for said walk out? i'm in.
    Patrolled up at PCMP for 15+ years as a part timer, As a retired line man for the same Union that represents them I would never cross their picket line.

  22. #847
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    6,608
    Quote Originally Posted by glspi View Post
    how many patrollers, how many days, how many willing to cover their costs this week for said walk out? i'm in.
    I’d chip in.

  23. #848
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Driggs
    Posts
    689
    I'm down.

  24. #849
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    funland
    Posts
    5,250
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    Holy smokes have you guys seen this?!?! A MINIMUM of 6 feet in the next week. a chance OF UP TO 12 TWELVE!!* feet!!

    If only you could see the graph of Alta COVID cases and parking reservation system bug reports!!

    Gonna be one for the ages, y'all!! Yeeeehawwwww!!!!

    *edit:12.5 actually

  25. #850
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Funland
    Posts
    1,810
    Hey B...






    jk,make some turns for me plz.
    Last edited by tBatt; 12-22-2021 at 11:06 PM.

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