Wasatch 21/22 - We're All Here 'Cause We're Not All There!

**bigdude2468** · 08-22-2022, 07:24 AM

Alta requiring parking reservations on Friday

**jtran10** · 08-22-2022, 09:35 AM

for real, what's up with the sunnyside lift? spent last night at the campground up there and no sign of a lift or lift parts anywhere in town. I could be dumb but I'd assume it takes longer than 2 months to install a new lift.

**telefreewasatch** · 08-22-2022, 07:26 PM

Ah grasshopper with eyes wide open...

Gotta share a story from today.
Been slinging rescue dogs in the Watershed for 40 yrs.
Training teams as long.
Haven't been to WP trailhead in the summer since Covid. Anybody driving up the LCC knows why.
Young woman calls UPD on me while hiking down. Heard her phone say "if you need 911" as she and her man pass.
Ask her if she is trying to make trouble for me. "Dogs aren't allowed in the watershed."
Will not stop to talk or reason. I pick up my pace stating that I want to make sure she talks to Unified about the rules that she won't let me discuss. Got accused of harassing and stalking that last mile and a half...with the fella shooting pictures of me behind them and upon arrival, my car and plates. She was looking at her phone during the walk down and I think realized that there are actually exceptions to the rule and by the time we hit the parking lot the accusation was down to "you can buy that vest on Amazon".

Worst thank you I ever got for training dogs and rescue dog teams to successfully search for people needing help in these here hills.

**telefreewasatch** · 08-22-2022, 08:07 PM

Oh and Unified when they got to the WP lot 30-40 minutes after she 1st called? 15 after we arrived?
Told her to post nekid pictures of herself on this forum or she'd get written up for crying wolf.
Still waitin...

**east or bust** · 08-22-2022, 08:36 PM

Sorry to hear that man. Sounds like you got full on Karen’d

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**zion zig zag** · 08-23-2022, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

Ah grasshopper with eyes wide open...

Gotta share a story from today.
Been slinging rescue dogs in the Watershed for 40 yrs.
Training teams as long.
Haven't been to WP trailhead in the summer since Covid. Anybody driving up the LCC knows why.
Young woman calls UPD on me while hiking down. Heard her phone say "if you need 911" as she and her man pass.
Ask her if she is trying to make trouble for me. "Dogs aren't allowed in the watershed."
Will not stop to talk or reason. I pick up my pace stating that I want to make sure she talks to Unified about the rules that she won't let me discuss. Got accused of harassing and stalking that last mile and a half...with the fella shooting pictures of me behind them and upon arrival, my car and plates. She was looking at her phone during the walk down and I think realized that there are actually exceptions to the rule and by the time we hit the parking lot the accusation was down to "you can buy that vest on Amazon".

Worst thank you I ever got for training dogs and rescue dog teams to successfully search for people needing help in these here hills.

You were under no obligation to explain yourself, and you were certainly under no obligation to hike a mile and a half with her. Should’ve just gone on about your day.

**telefreewasatch** · 08-23-2022, 06:51 AM

You're right.
Once they took pictures of my vehicle and plates while accusing me of harassment, stalking, and illegal dogs (two) in the shed, however, I figured I'd better stick around if I didn't want a warrant issued...

**jmedslc** · 08-23-2022, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

You're right.
Once they took pictures of my vehicle and plates while accusing me of harassment, stalking, and illegal dogs (two) in the shed, however, I figured I'd better stick around if I didn't want a warrant issued...

Wow yeah much better to stick around and face the music given their aggressiveness.

Just gonna comment and ask a question. Technically by watershed rules you may have been in the wrong having two canines on the trail while not actively involved in a work effort, right? Or is it legit for a single handler to have two dogs (or even a single dog) out for a training effort any time you want?

While I’m very clear on the rules for the common man and resident dogs with a watershed permit, I’m not clear on the specifics in this case.

Tough situation to deal with as it blew up beyond your control to harassment and stalking accusations. What a chode.

**telefreewasatch** · 08-23-2022, 07:54 AM

Good questions. Twenty years ago there was a meeting with the four watershed ski areas and multiple city and county agencies. I helped the watershed write the current rules on search dogs in the watershed that day.
It was at that time that their attorney recommended having a watershed patch on their work vests. Until that patch was on, their phone would not stay on the hook cause of people saying their poodles, etc. were search dogs.
There was a woman at that meeting who could not understand why these dogs could not be contained to the ski areas. I had to explain that I could not ask a team to go to an unfamiliar place in rising hazard at night; they need to know the range well. The sergeant in charge of county SAR at the time kept repeating "Just give him what he's asking for". Good man, Thad is. Lurks here some.
It's all in the name of training; terrain familiarization first and foremost whilst getting the benefit of agility and endurance workouts.
Not a problem training two at once.
Another gain that day was that these dogs have the right to be off lead anywhere. Huge thing, eh?

**jmedslc** · 08-23-2022, 08:35 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I support our SAR dog handlers’ training efforts.

That said there are loads of rogue comfort animals and “service animals” (some even vested but without watershed tags) to be found in parking lots and on trails in the canyons. To the untrained Karen’s eye, it may be difficult to discern which are legit and which are untrained pets. The drama will undoubtedly continue.

**zion zig zag** · 08-23-2022, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

You're right.
Once they took pictures of my vehicle and plates while accusing me of harassment, stalking, and illegal dogs (two) in the shed, however, I figured I'd better stick around if I didn't want a warrant issued...

I get it, makes sense. I had a very similar situation a couple of years ago in a trailhead with my dogs being off-leash. This was post hike so they were very chill, right by my side but this Karen started yelling at me and swooped up her dog like mine were getting ready to eat it. I was on the phone and I told her, "excuse me, I'm on the phone," as she was yelling. This really set her into a frenzy.

She started in with all of the allegations and started taking photos of me and my truck telling me that she was calling the cops right then. I had places to be so I told her to fuck off and left. I rolled the dice that OPD wouldn't give a shit. They must not have given a shit as I never heard peep.

**Dantheman** · 08-23-2022, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by jmedslc

That said there are loads of rogue comfort animals and “service animals” (some even vested but without watershed tags) to be found in parking lots and on trails in the canyons. To the untrained Karen’s eye, it may be difficult to discern which are legit and which are untrained pets. The drama will undoubtedly continue.

People are getting pretty brazen about ignoring dog restrictions in the CCs. There'd probably be a lot less Karen'ing and more "benefit of the doubt"-giving if UPD did even a modicum of enforcement. I'm sure it's on their high-priority to-do list right below enforcing winter traction laws.

**telefreewasatch** · 08-23-2022, 10:27 AM

Couple things to add. Young dogs learn best from already trained dogs not humans, especially off lead, thus the benefit of going out with two dogs.

These dogs are out ranging hard when in the mountains, especially early in the day when they're fresh.
When they haven't checked in for a while I hide knowing airflow for difficulty of search. Love it when they are moving so fast that they miss where you left the trail on the 1st go round. They stay a little closer for a bit. Only do a couple a day to keep them hungry for the find. So I should have already stated that there is actual search training going on nearly every time out. If I'm with someone else then even more difficult searches can be had.

I use tug as a reward, never as a game.
Tugging is an important trait I look for when selecting pups.
Dogs could care less about finding a stranger.
It's all about the reward. I make them bark three times to be rewarded; a ranging dog needs to be able to tell you when they've found someone at a distance, and not leave them.

And these "avalanche" dogs assist Sheriff's departments year round for missing people, folks falling in creeks, suicides, etc.
Lost count of how many summer callouts I've been on. Mostly suicides.

**Shredhead** · 08-23-2022, 11:10 AM

Interesting.
Thanks for the effort!

Working with my dogs, out in the woods, is one my favorite things in life.

**tBatt** · 08-23-2022, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by jtran10

for real, what's up with the sunnyside lift? spent last night at the campground up there and no sign of a lift or lift parts anywhere in town. I could be dumb but I'd assume it takes longer than 2 months to install a new lift.

Concrete getting poured today. Foundation is the longest part of the job.
With that said, there's a reason they didn't take down Albion yet..

**detrusor** · 08-23-2022, 01:45 PM

Thanks for training the dogs and everything else you do TFW

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**Boissal** · 08-23-2022, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

People are getting pretty brazen about ignoring dog restrictions in the CCs. There'd probably be a lot less Karen'ing and more "benefit of the doubt"-giving if UPD did even a modicum of enforcement. I'm sure it's on their high-priority to-do list right below enforcing winter traction laws.

It's been insane this year, I can't count the number of people I've seen with dogs in the Cottonwoods. I'd say around 20% of the people genuinely don't know about the restriction and are thankful about the warning. They usually turn around and leave. The other 80% of the people get super defensive and sometime threatening. I've taken to telling them that usually I wouldn't give a shit but since they're being shitheads I'll be calling dispatch so they can be welcomed by a LEO at the trailhead. You don't want the friendly warning, hopefully you get the fucking stick!

I almost ran over an off-leash lab last week below Silver Fork. I apologized to the owner assuming she lived in the neighborhood cause why else would you be hiking that obscure bit of trail. She got all uppity about running out of places to walk her dog without risking an encounter with "those crazy bikers". Apparently she lives in Draper and likes to hike Corner Canyon but it's been ruined for her and the dog. Now she's up in BCC and other bikers are ruining it for her too! I told her the watershed violation ticket would ruin shit even harder but she was having none of it...

**Dantheman** · 08-23-2022, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Boissal

I almost ran over an off-leash lab last week below Silver Fork. I apologized to the owner assuming she lived in the neighborhood cause why else would you be hiking that obscure bit of trail. She got all uppity about running out of places to walk her dog without risking an encounter with "those crazy bikers". Apparently she lives in Draper and likes to hike Corner Canyon but it's been ruined for her and the dog. Now she's up in BCC and other bikers are ruining it for her too! I told her the watershed violation ticket would ruin shit even harder but she was having none of it...

The Corner Canyon where half of it is closed to dogs above BST? The Corner Canyon that, where dogs are allowed, has a huge legal off-leash area, at least one hike-only trail, and multiple other trails that are rarely used by anyone? That Corner Canyon? JFC....

**schindlerpiste** · 08-23-2022, 02:57 PM

I can see this escalating real fast. Generally, people observe rules. A few disregard the rules and bring their dogs into the canyon. The problem begins here. This is where I will say that avi. dogs, who work on the mountain should have a lifetime exemption from any canyon restrictions. When a few disregard the rules, people who own dogs and want to hike with their dogs in the canyon, but would ordinarily obey the rules, become brazen and begin to disregard them. These are usually the ones who immediately gain attitude when confronted. There are a lot of people out there who live in confined semi-urban places that are aware of the rule, but don't understand why it is in place and whether it does any good. After-all, wild animals enjoy this space, why not a trained domestic dog?

The one thing about TFW's situation is why are avalanche dogs allowed to work in the canyon, but are not allowed to be there when off duty? Seems disrespectful and like a double standard, or something.

**Touring_Sedan** · 08-23-2022, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Boissal

It's been insane this year, I can't count the number of people I've seen with dogs in the Cottonwoods. I'd say around 20% of the people genuinely don't know about the restriction and are thankful about the warning. They usually turn around and leave. The other 80% of the people get super defensive and sometime threatening. I've taken to telling them that usually I wouldn't give a shit but since they're being shitheads I'll be calling dispatch so they can be welcomed by a LEO at the trailhead. You don't want the friendly warning, hopefully you get the fucking stick!

I almost ran over an off-leash lab last week below Silver Fork. I apologized to the owner assuming she lived in the neighborhood cause why else would you be hiking that obscure bit of trail. She got all uppity about running out of places to walk her dog without risking an encounter with "those crazy bikers". Apparently she lives in Draper and likes to hike Corner Canyon but it's been ruined for her and the dog. Now she's up in BCC and other bikers are ruining it for her too! I told her the watershed violation ticket would ruin shit even harder but she was having none of it...

Yeah, CC is ruined for her and her dog BEACUSE SHE WAS LETTING IT SHIT EVERYWHERE. There was so much fecal coliform, they couldn't filter it all out. I'm sure she's just as diligent about cleaning up her dog shit in LCC as she was in CC.

**Boissal** · 08-23-2022, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Touring_Sedan

Yeah, CC is ruined for her and her dog BEACUSE SHE WAS LETTING IT SHIT EVERYWHERE. There was so much fecal coliform, they couldn't filter it all out. I'm sure she's just as diligent about cleaning up her dog shit in LCC as she was in CC.

Funny you mention this, I did find a bagged shit at the end of the trail. And I took it down with me cause the lady looked like the kind of person who goes through the motions of bagging the poo and leaving it for the shit fairy...

**telefreewasatch** · 08-23-2022, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

The one thing about TFW's situation is why are avalanche dogs allowed to work in the canyon, but are not allowed to be there when off duty? Seems disrespectful and like a double standard, or something.

But they may go in the watershed year round for training purposes.
Must say that though work goes into training search dog teams, the reward of having that dog with you in the local backcountry is worth a lot.

**Phall** · 08-23-2022, 09:08 PM

I always try to be nice about calling people out, “hey! Just so you know it’s a stupid expensive fine to get caught with your pup up here, just looking out!” The worst is residents who have no clear marking their dogs are, who then give me attitude back.

Are alta resident dogs required to be patched? Does that resident license give the dog free reign to run in lcc creek as it wishes? Just wondering as that’s what i saw a few weeks back

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**sfotex** · 08-23-2022, 11:54 PM

What did Unified say?

**googledidoo** · 08-24-2022, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Phall

I always try to be nice about calling people out, “hey! Just so you know it’s a stupid expensive fine to get caught with your pup up here, just looking out!” The worst is residents who have no clear marking their dogs are, who then give me attitude back.

Are alta resident dogs required to be patched? Does that resident license give the dog free reign to run in lcc creek as it wishes? Just wondering as that’s what i saw a few weeks back

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That's a good and tactful way to go about it. I'm actually thankful for all the Karens that call people out because i will bet 98/100 times people with dogs in the canyon are breaking the rules.

Meanwhile, TFW, while your experience may have been annoying, you might have been able to alleviate the situation by saying i totally appreciate your concern and then explain the situation. It would have gone down a lot better. Maybe they could have handled it better, but their intentions were sincere. Especially as they tried to become friendly after they learned the deal. They should have apologized and thanked you for setting them right, but at the same time I get a sense you could have initially responded better.

If there weren't so many entitled asshats breaking the rules, I think you'd find there wouldn't be so many "Karens" getting fed up and speaking out.