Wasatch 21/22 - We're All Here 'Cause We're Not All There!

[googledidoo]

Love those pix getoutside!! Keep the stoke coming.

TFW, good to see we got some ideas flowing even if we don't see eye to eye on the gondola.

I agree with dshack. He and I seem like we are completely on the same page on this topic except he can explain it way better.

And to earlier comments, I think the ski resorts are an eye sore. But we need to have some skiing and they are already there. Doesn't mean we gotta fuck up the beauty of our canyons even more with a gondola along the entire length of the LCC. And regardless, it just doesn't seem we have done enough to improve current bus service, etc before doing something as radical as a gondola or widening LCC for another bus lane.

Alright, back to the stoke. Glad to see more snow on the way.

[mar123]

> I think the parking structure idea is more to fit what cars are already here. People circling lots to find a spot , and the parking on the road. Any more skiers, and they will need to limit ticket /pass sales anyway

^yes exactly.

Its not about more cars but fitting what is there...and the more I think about this whole issue Its going to be very hard if not impossible to solve this problem without placing a restriction on ticket sales or knowing how many tickets/season passes each resort can sell and accommodate on a given day.

But a parking deck to accommodate current ticket sales, get people from parking on the roads, being turned around, circling lots, and opening up spaces again for backcountry users would solve the parking issue at resorts....I guess long as some sort of maximum ticket sales monitoring/cap is put in place.

I think parking and flow of traffic(the red snake) are two separate issues. The traffic lights on Wasatch blvd and Fort Union intersection are serious bottle neck flow killers, then you have police inspections, cars sliding off roads, avalanches etc....but from what I remember once you get in the canyon and if theres no accidents or avy's traffic seems to flow at a reasonable pace. Building parking decks with separate entrances to an upper and lower lot would also increase the flow of traffic into the resorts off the roads.

Bottom line is resorts need to be held accountable for their ticket sales and spaces available...unless ticket sales are limited or monitored in a way that the canyons and current parking spaces can accommodate in a reasonable matter this problem is never going to go away....its just going to be more more more.

Last post until stoke.

Above pics look lovely...turned out to be a nice afternoon!

[Dantheman]

Hooked up with Dan and son at the bird.
Dan, you've raised a ripper.
And Dan says "you should see him on a bike".
From a guy that rides two tracks, I don't think I want to!

High praise from a man such as yourself! His pole plants need work but he's certainly much better than I was at 11.

Bike pics here: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/....php?p=6456742

[BFD]

my friends daughter is enjoying the mantras. Even with the beat top sheets.

[east or bust]

And, if someone thinks a gondola is an eyesore but multi story parking garages are the answer I’m at a loss.

As I see it the main difference is developed vs undeveloped land. A parking garage on an existing parking lot isn’t expanding the amount of developed land in the canyon.

I’m no expert when it comes to parking garages, but to me the negative is the obvious but maybe not so obvious statement that a two story garage isn’t going to increase parking twofold. Any given level of a garage is going to hold less than the given area of flat land held. I just don’t see a garage with less than 4-5 stories being worthwhile, and whether you’re concerned about creating an eyesore or not, there’s no question that a garage of that size would be just that.

[Trefin]

For those anti gondola what about us over here in BCC folks, its two more miles and one more lift added to the planned lifts up the LCC to get over to Brighton. Phase 2?
Phase 3 connect to Summit County?
Jimmy's vision on the future...
Wish the thing was coming to upper LCC from Summit County serving BCC on the way.
Said as much at two SLCounty council meetings.

This is what i thought when i first moved here, why the hell isn't it the main proposal. logistically it would be way easier with much less elevation gain and impact on roads. Its interesting your points on the fact the gondolas can move 4x the stated amount. my main gripe with this recent proposal was skier capacity, as in why would you commit that much $ without solving the current problem.

Anyways, Alta has been amazing this year, complete turnaround from the shitshow that was last year. I feel for those who have BCC or PC passes, only heard its been awful from convos on the lift. I'm gonna do what what i can contacting USFS folks about BC access, but TFW is right, it needs to change and be safer, there was a couple days last year that were completely fucked and i was honestly worried id get buried driving down the canyon, so many people in ill equipped cars made it impossible to descend the canyon in a safe and timely fashion. I agree its bullshit to subsidize private corps but nothing been done for the past decade and even hiking and climbing in the summer is just as bad as skiing now.

[Lone Star]

^yes exactly.
...but from what I remember once you get in the canyon and if theres no accidents or avy's traffic seems to flow at a reasonable pace.

the red snake is nasty at the top of the canyon in the PM time on many big days. maybe it isn't as painful because there is no powder panic? still, it looks brutal.

[telefreewasatch]

Attachment 396323
WP exit little rocky but fun deep dense pow up high. ⛄️⛄️❄️❄️ More snow coming this week should cover up WP exit….hopefully. ��⛷

You may have waited 15 years to make your first post, but it was a goodun!

[skifishbum]

You may have waited 15 years to make your first post, but it was a goodun!

an og blast from the past
ive shared skinners and turns with
strong work
jongette
and thanks to the rest for bringin the goods to the wa wah satch thread
better 1/2 went up sat and farmed some georges pow
said decent up high
meh git in and out
n kesslers not ready

[Hammer-Down]

To me this whole thing has been assbackwards. Figure out how many people the canyon can handle and then figure out the most efficient way to get those people up and down the canyon. If that is the gondola, then great. But don't just blindly build the gondola and still fill parking to the brim. The million dollar question then becomes how to implement a capacity constraint. Without a lot of forward thinking it will naturaly just become who ever has the fattest wallet (aka "maximize shareholder returns").

Exactly what I said a few months back.

Why are they trying to get more people up the canyon(s)? You can't tell me that if the gondola goes in they will reduce the number of cars that are allowed up or cut out some of the existing parking. The resorts and canyons are already full. Why spend millions trying to get five more pounds of shit in a ten pound bag. Its the classic American stupidity that more is always better, and when you get more, it's never really enough, you need more, which will be better. Until it isn't.

Some argue it is for economics. Those resorts are making plenty of money...and if they aren't, then raise prices more, don't increase volume. That is the fail of Vail. Maybe that works at a Whistler or Vail, but LCC and BCC are not that. They are postage stamps that have space issues. If proprietors aren't happy with the earnings with the current dynamics then maybe they should go somewhere else. That is the beauty of America.

Some say the gondola will make things safer. Maybe it would. But there are probably other upgrades and protocols that can be reviewed to increase safety too....

Rode the chair with newly elected Alta Town Councilman on Thursday, said he was vehemently against the gondola, so there is that.

Meanwhile, that was a pretty good few days of early season skiing lately

[oldskibum]

Alta is always better in a low tide December, and before it opens, and after it closes. December 18th parking changes may bring a change of tune?
And patience, Rockhoppers. A long and wonderful winter is ahead, and we'll figure out how to make the most of it one way or another. We gotta work with what we've got.

[schindlerpiste]

I guess that if they really wanted to preserve the canyon they could prohibit all cars, other than livery, commercial, residents and maintenance related. I say build a tunnel underneath the current rode to accommodate a tube-type rail. Who knows maybe there is silver down there to pay the freight

[patchorang]

Took the bus up to tour around griz yesterday. Spent 3 hours riding and waiting for buses. If we can't park up there, we are at least going to need buses that reliably show up.

[Dantheman]

Saying the gondola needs to be built with private funds is in my opinion somewhat nearsighted.

Those two resorts bring an absolute shitload of visitors to Utah and Salt Lake every year, and have contributed to the explosion of the valley in recent years.
Opinions on the pros and cons of that aside, it is a fact.

The dollars that those visits bring reach far beyond the resorts in hotel stays, restaurant visits, skis purchased, trinkets bought, cars rented, its a much longer list than simply lift tickets purchased.

Making investments to increase the economic viability of an asset is one of the key roles of government. A 'large' public investment now will generate returns for the Salt valley far beyond the pockets of ASL and Snowbird for many years.

/outsiders opinion

This is correct, but also a simplistic analysis. Alta-Bird currently generates X dollars of tax revenue (both direct and ancillary). In the future if nothing is done they will generate Y dollars, and if something is done they will generate Z dollars and mostly likely Z>Y. The question is whether the delta from Y to Z will generate a net-positive ROI on a billion-dollar public expenditure over 30 years. This seems unlikely to me, but to my knowledge a rigorous economic analysis has not been done. Further, there are probably other ways the state could spend a billion dollars on a public works project that would have a much larger ROI, like fixing the twice-daily parking lot on I-15, improving air quality, restoring Utah Lake, etc.

Also, you know what else generated a shitload of economic activity? The Outdoor Retailer convention. The state government didn't give a tenth of shit when they pushed that out of the state.

And, if someone thinks a gondola is an eyesore but multi story parking garages are the answer I’m at a loss. My take away after visiting last January is that upper LCC is already an exurb and over developed.

I'm not necessarily in favor of parking garages (though, the ones that already exist are uncontroversial and even the ones mar123 is proposing would be far smaller than the massive hotels at Snowbird). But, the difference in eyesore factor is that the gondola will be located in areas that are not currently developed, and will be visible from long distances that the existing development is not visible from. "Eyesore" is subjective, but no one can deny that it will forever change the character of the canyon in ways nothing else will. The slick marketing materials pushed by Gondolaworks have largely avoided showing what this thing will actually look like, and let's not forget that as currently proposed it will sit there unused 245 days per year.

It never ceases to amaze me. All this talk LCC etc each season while BCC has significantly more cars, more headaches, more development and just overall WAY MORE SHITSHOW.

I drove down LCC after skiing a beautiful pow day at Alta on friday, smooth traffic and no trouble. I turned the corner to BCC and was met with a red snake of IKONIC-Brightonic proportions - a snake that was moving barely 15mph at times and which extended from the mouth of canyon all the way to silver fork! (there was a single break in the traffic just above Mill B). I was slightly surprised, but not really. Sadly, our little cottonwood canyon life saving gondola ain't gonna do shit for big cottonwood.

Yeah, it's unbelievable that BCC is being completely ignored.

Why are they trying to get more people up the canyon(s)? You can't tell me that if the gondola goes in they will reduce the number of cars that are allowed up or cut out some of the existing parking.

The road will continue to be the primary people-mover, so no, it definitely won't. Plus, the gondi will be a huge attraction unto itself which will undercut its ability to fix the vehicular traffic problem. Gondi vs. red snake is a false dichotomy. We'll keep the red snake and get a gondi on top of it.

Its interesting your points on the fact the gondolas can move 4x the stated amount. my main gripe with this recent proposal was skier capacity, as in why would you commit that much $ without solving the current problem.

Semi-conspiratorial take:

By limiting the proposed capacity to 1,000 ppl/hr and the days of operation to 120 days/year they're actively gaming the costs to make it look cost-neutral with the bus alternative. A 3k-4k ppl/hr lift that operates year-round probably pencils out to hundreds of millions more in lifetime costs and is harder to justify to a state legislature that claims to be fiscally conservative.

[Millsie1]

I know I'm going to get heat for this but maybe its time to develope both canyons like Europe and ski everything.

[Hammer-Down]

The road will continue to be the primary people-mover, so no, it definitely won't. Plus, the gondi will be a huge attraction unto itself which will undercut it's ability to fix the vehicular traffic problem. Gondi vs. red snake is a false dichotomy. We'll keep the red snake and get a gondi on top of it.

Exactly. In the transportation engineering textbook world where mathematics are used and emotions, revenues and politics are ignored this is called "induced congestion".

If you want a good real world example of this look at the Big Dig project in Boston. The old highway system was ugly, disjointed and WAY overloaded. The new system is below grade, better connected, and WAY overloaded even though it has more capacity. Another dose of reality this project served up, which would most certainly happen on a LCC project, is it'll cost way more than they estimate during the sales pitches. Fact # 438.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I know I'm going to get heat for this but maybe its time to develope both canyons like Europe and ski everything.

Yeah, if you want to have a wilderness aesthetic you can go to the Uintas.


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[Benneke10]

Thank god the cottonwoods have 60,000 acres of protected wilderness. Pretty easy to get a wilderness aesthetic skiing there... also resort skiers aren't the only people who care about that

[The AD]

I remember a few years ago hearing that the mountains at Park City tended to be pretty quiet during Sundance. Is that still the case or has the Epic Pass made that a thing of the past?

[NBABUCKS1]

Yeah, if you want to have a wilderness aesthetic you can go to the Uintas.


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was wondering the other day, why aren't there any resorts in the uintas?

[raisingarizona13]

I like the idea of closing the road except for the homeowners, employees, transit busses and emergency responders. The gondola would be a lot less of an eyesore if there was a real effort towards combating the smog related to vehicle use. IMO this would have to be city wide effort with better bus transit system connected to the gondola base station. BCC should have it's own gondola it sounds like. F it, go full Euro, if you think it's bad now give it another ten years. It's gonna get super F-d if something isn't done soon. I'm all about the ONE as well, there isn't a better place in the country for a interconnected Euro style ski experience. There's already so much traffic, it's not like there's some sort of wild, true backcountry experience in the Wasatch any longer.

I guess I'm thinking bigger than just the canyons here, SLC needs to act on the pollution problems there as a whole.

[raisingarizona13]

Dan, who put those pictures together of the gondola and those towers? Maybe that's what it would look like but those kinds of gondolas have huge spans, those pics look like they were put together by an alarmist with a heavy bias towards influencing others to becoming anti-gondola. I'm not so sure that there would be so many towers stacked one after another out of the base like that.

Edit: I took another look, yup. Save Our Canyons definitely fits that description

[skiSilent_skiDeep]

I work a lot on public lands and one thing I've observed is that the land managers are more often than not more reactive than proactive and that's extremely unfortunate and generally leads them into much more problematic clean up efforts. It's also a lot more of government poorly handling tax dollars which I bet we all find frustrating. I don't think the growth in the SLC area is going to slow down much any time soon and right now there's an opportunity to manage this area in a thought out, intelligent way before things get really ugly. Hopefully decisions are made on real, long term projections and not short sighted, emotional based opinions and feelings. We can't stop change but we can manipulate it's outcome.

im not a dentist of the lawyering or land managing type, but fuck it, how bout the USFS go nuclear and suspend BCC/LCC ski resort land use permits until these deficiencies are corrected?

[raisingarizona13]

im not a dentist of the lawyering or land managing type, but fuck it, how bout the USFS go nuclear and suspend BCC/LCC ski resort land use permits until these deficiencies are corrected?

Sounds great but, why in the world would the USFS want to hurt their relationship with the ski areas in those canyons. I bet their cut from these ski resorts help them out tremendously with budget problems.

What am I saying with that? It's not going to happen bud, lets try and keep the conversation somewhat reality based. Unfortunately the eco-nuts aren't very good at that. Extremism generally doesn't do very well in the real world.

[Dantheman]

Dan, who put those pictures together of the gondola and those towers? Maybe that's what it would look like but those kinds of gondolas have huge spans, those pics look like they were put together by an alarmist with a heavy bias towards influencing others to becoming anti-gondola. I'm not so sure that there would be so many towers stacked one after another out of the base like that.

Edit: I took another look, yup. Save Our Canyons definitely fits that description

Per UDOT's EIS there will be 22 towers and two angle stations along the full 8.6-mile gondola alignment. Tower heights would range between 131 feet and 262 feet. SOC absolutely has an agenda, but per the facts presented in the EIS those renderings are a reasonably accurate representation of what it will actually look like.

Also, per the EIS UDOT anticipates an 80% reduction in avalanche control activity on SR-210 with snow sheds in place. Currently (stats go up to 2017), artillery rounds are fired 153 times during ski season on average. UDOT expects that number to drop to 31 rounds fired on six days total each winter. The gondola would not operate during avalanche control since shell fragments could theoretically hit the cable. The cables would have to be “inspected by cameras and magnetic imaging devices, and the towers would be inspected by video, to ensure that no damage has occurred,” before the gondola could reopen. The gondola would not run when interlodge restrictions are in effect, either. None of this is speculative, these are verifiable facts contained in the EIS.

I like the idea of closing the road except for the homeowners, employees, transit busses and emergency responders. The gondola would be a lot less of an eyesore if there was a real effort towards combating the smog related to vehicle use. IMO this would have to be city wide effort with better bus transit system connected to the gondola base station. BCC should have it's own gondola it sounds like. F it, go full Euro, if you think it's bad now give it another ten years. It's gonna get super F-d if something isn't done soon. I'm all about the ONE as well, there isn't a better place in the country for a interconnected Euro style ski experience. There's already so much traffic, it's not like there's some sort of wild, true backcountry experience in the Wasatch any longer.

I guess I'm thinking bigger than just the canyons here, SLC needs to act on the pollution problems there as a whole.

Combined BCC/LCC traffic does not have a meaningful impact on overall air pollution in Salt Lake County. I-15 alone averages around 300,000 vehicles per day, and almost half of SLCo air pollution comes from non-vehicular sources.