Wasatch 21/22 - We're All Here 'Cause We're Not All There!

[happytimefunbox]

Attachment 409555

Not gonna lie I hope their pilots licenses are revoked

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[tBatt]

Not gonna lie I hope their pilots licenses are revoked

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Considering that was fall of 2019 and they're still ripping around daily, seems like the only outcome was getting the thread on MP deleted.

Some fun bits from the 2018/19 Wasatch Thread. Link to MP is dead.

[Xover]

Hit little chute to hot pow bad news str8line this weekend, thought of the maggots. Yew!

Wasn't the first summit this time 20 years ago .... ??

[CirqueScaler]

Thanks for the link tbatt. Unfortunate that the MP link is dead; I would have liked to read.

Would regular joes have standing to sue land managers for non-enforcement of the Wilderness Act? Bad case because it's just prosecutorial discretion, anyways?

I've also thought maybe there's an angle where a conservationist could fund a legal budget for land manager enforcement of public land misuse. I wonder if that'd be good bang for the buck vs something like Nature Conservancy.

[Benneke10]

Regular folks, nonprofits, etc can sue the land managers. Happens all the time, and some organizations specialize in it (wilderness watch, earthjustice, etc).

FS brought heli bros to court and they did pay a fine and I think one had his license suspended

[Lone Star]

Yeah. sue the land managers. that will free up more of their work time so they can do a better job managing the land. plus its good Insta street cred being part of an organization that is good at being visible and at fighting...but not at getting anything meaningful done or trying to develop relationships with allies OR opponents.

[Phall]

LOL, pointed. I wonder if that's the same organization who put out a post asking for people to report "illegal" treestands in the wasatch which quickly got taken down (40 minutes at 9 am on a weekday?!) after getting flamed by hunters and others.

[jackstraw]

Quick hit in Utah and it snowed for us. DV and the Bird. We ended up pretty lucky here and JH considering the low tide situation. Found untracked daily.

[wasatchgravityresearch]

After reading the full UAC report about the East Bowl avalanche, I straight up do not understand why two experienced guides were taking six clients into East Bowl. I know that as a community we're supposed to be grateful that those who trigger avalanches report them, and that judgement doesn't help anyone in this scenario, but the decisions that day leave me with absolute bewilderment. The Wasatch Mountain Guides are on the UAC's website among a select few of other guiding services, essentially a recommendation from the UAC to use their services. In the write up, the guide who assisted in the recovery said that they were aware of current conditions, discussed the state of the snowpack, and knew of the avalanche activity from the day before. She said they they were using CalTopo's slope angle shading as a tool in order to stay off the steep stuff. After looking at East Bowl with the slope angle shading on CalTopo, how can anyone choose that terrain for the day? The shading is so abhorrently obvious. The whole upper bowl is over 30 degrees and leads right into a terrain trap. Maybe it would make more sense to me if a party of unprepared and uneducated backcountry users who weren't aware of the snowpack problems stumbled into avalanche terrain and triggered a huge slide and got into trouble, but theoretically this should be the opposite. How can guides justify taking clients into avalanche terrain when the first words at the top of the day's forecast say "TODAY HAS AVALANCHE ACCIDENT WRITTEN ALL OVER IT" and just a few scrolls down the page has the special bulletin essentially pleading with backcountry users to not ski shaded slopes above 30 degrees. It's not like it was a "green-yellow day" as everyone's favorite heli-pilot put it. Perhaps the clients were demanding cold smoke powder and the guides were pressured into bringing them to East Bowl? Maybe Willie was in a tough spot because of the lack of fitness of his clients? I just do not understand, there is so much terrain out there that is either less than 30 or a sunny aspect. I'm glad Willie is alive, we've lost too many legends this year alone.

[Benneke10]

They must have felt like geniuses skiing into East Bowl "all those suckers sticking to low angle don't even know the facets are wet lol totally safe out here, weak layer is nonreactive"

[skifishbum]

Made too many mistakes myself to judge others risk reward tolerances especially in a getting paid scenario
Stoked on the positive outcome

[CirqueScaler]

Maybe not as strongly phrased as WGR, but I genuinely struggle with the "no judgment" orthodoxy. SFB, I've already screwed up a few times (maybe more) in my very short time in the bc. But isn't judgment = accountability? And accountability is a good thing in every other part of our life. I want to be held accountable for doing something wrong. That seems pretty basic.

I didn't know it was those folks - they seem very well-respected and liked. Glad they're alive, obviously. But it does seem like there should be some accountability (aside from obviously almost having died), or that people should at least be able to talk about it, including whether they think it was a good or a bad decision and why?

We regularly have similar discussions in this thread when tragedy is fortunately not involved, such as the early season south face posts.

[D-Roc]

Maybe not as strongly phrased as WGR, but I genuinely struggle with the "no judgment" orthodoxy. SFB, I've already screwed up a few times (maybe more) in my very short time in the bc. But isn't judgment = accountability? And accountability is a good thing in every other part of our life. I want to be held accountable for doing something wrong. That seems pretty basic.

I didn't know it was those folks - they seem very well-respected and liked. Glad they're alive, obviously. But it does seem like there should be some accountability (aside from obviously almost having died), or that people should at least be able to talk about it, including whether they think it was a good or a bad decision and why?

We regularly have similar discussions in this thread when tragedy is fortunately not involved, such as the early season south face posts.

I feel that I ought to chime in here. Especially given the circumstances of my own accident.

Accountability = ownership, of the decision, the actions, and the result. Judgement is evaluation from the outside based upon their own credo or decision compass. Judgement is often seen as an attack, whereas (if approached correctly) should be used as a learning tool with the goal of enlightenment and a teachable moment (of the judgers).

For me, I was judged in both spheres (attacked vs learned) and both had value in a sense as they forced me to look into some dark corners and address some things but it also served as therapy for me to share the experience and come to terms with it (im tearing up a bit as i write this)

As far as the 'decision' point was made above, I would say the one thing to always keep in mind when doing a post evaluation of decisions - 'don't confuse a good decision with getting lucky' (this is something I do now)

[Benneke10]

Guides aught to be held to a higher standard since they are risking their clients lives as well as their own. I don't judge individuals for making questionable choices but a guide sending seemingly very inexperienced (...just flew in from sea level) clients who just wanted a fun day into deadly terrain deserves to be judged.

[jackstraw]

Guides aught to be held to a higher standard since they are risking their clients lives as well as their own. I don't judge individuals for making questionable choices but a guide sending seemingly very inexperienced (...just flew in from sea level) clients who just wanted a fun day into deadly terrain deserves to be judged.

Yeah. We all know it's an inexact science, but even my kid saw the report that day and told me how scary it was and then we heard the news afterwards. Paid professionals must be held to a higher standard, but per sfb, thankfully it turned out ok, albeit there may be some psd involved.

[brutah]

I don't understand some of your assumptions that the guides involved aren't being judged while judging them yourselves.

I'm just glad these are all close calls and every incident recently has had a positive outcome. Really tricky snowpack right now seems like it's caught a bunch of respected people off guard.

[muted reborn]

She said they they were using CalTopo's slope angle shading as a tool in order to stay off the steep stuff. After looking at East Bowl with the slope angle shading on CalTopo, how can anyone choose that terrain for the day? The shading is so abhorrently obvious. The whole upper bowl is over 30 degrees and leads right into a terrain trap.

I just found out it was Winslow - I do know her so take this with a grain of salt. First off- Her choices were much different than Willies reading this report (I don't know who Willie is btw) and she is not in charge of his choices. Please separate the two guides actions and choices, it was not a group decision where they skied.

You seem to be ignoring her saying " I told him we were going to go up to East Peak, traverse down the NW ridge to the lower angle saddle, and skid into the east bowl from there." I've done this route too, it's all 30 roughly. Look on Caltopo. I wouldn't have skied it that day anyways - but that's irrelevant. The ridgeline down the NW ridge is steeper but rocky and solid normally (havne't been up there this year), it's safe and technically inbounds at Solitude or on the edge if my memory is correct.

I do agree there is safer choices out there where you don't have to pull out Caltopo and thread the needle, but she got her clients down safe and thats the bottom line.

[whyturn]

I’m glad Avy result was safe. I was with guides on cats and clients did stupid things. I’ve done stupid things. Not saying they were stupid just saying you would not ski it means you did not ski it


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[BFD]

I do a lot of stupid things. But I usually try to avoid terrain traps. I definitely do not drop in on top of someone as they are skiing into a terrain trap. I give the other guide credit for calling out this could easily of been a multi. Hope Willie makes a quick and complete recovery. I was surprised a guide would need to pull out and rely on caltopo. I would think an area like this you would already be familiar with safe routes.

[telefreewasatch]

Haven't spoken with Willie yet, he's still in hospital. So no facts from his perspective.
I'll have more to say after speaking with him, but pretty sure y'all are expecting some wisdom from me so I'll give er a go.
I've been involved in many avalanche rescues and recoveries over the years, yet I've never judged anyone, ever.
Even when my personal safety is at risk cuz of some dumb fool.
Very few of us head out thinking we or someone we are with may not return from this joyous experience.
Mistakes are made, often more than one to result in an accident or tragedy.
To err is human.
Do we learn from mistakes made? Hopefully.
Should we discuss the mistakes made in this case? Of course.
Sorry we don't have all the facts yet.
Willie Benegas has forgotten more than any of us will learn about being in the mountains.
And has put his safety and his client's summit chances in jeopardy on large mountains around the world to rescue complete strangers. (Some of these mountains cost clients a pretty penny, too).

My message, especially to those of you newer to this touring / mountaineering game and are quick to judge is this:
If it can happen to Willie, it can happen to anyone. You, me, anyone.
Believe it.

[zion zig zag]

Willie Benegas has forgotten more than any of us will learn about being in the mountains.

This is what stuck out to me about the whole thing. Sobering. I’d like to pick his brain about it a year from now.

[muted reborn]

Dang, after googling him he sounds more experienced than almost all of us combined, ha. 7 women saved his life that day, kudos to all of them.

[tgapp]

Haven't spoken with Willie yet, he's still in hospital. So no facts from his perspective.
I'll have more to say after speaking with him, but pretty sure y'all are expecting some wisdom from me so I'll give er a go.
I've been involved in many avalanche rescues and recoveries over the years, yet I've never judged anyone, ever.
Even when my personal safety is at risk cuz of some dumb fool.
Very few of us head out thinking we or someone we are with may not return from this joyous experience.
Mistakes are made, often more than one to result in an accident or tragedy.
To err is human.
Do we learn from mistakes made? Hopefully.
Should we discuss the mistakes made in this case? Of course.
Sorry we don't have all the facts yet.
Willie Benegas has forgotten more than any of us will learn about being in the mountains.
And has put his safety and his client's summit chances in jeopardy on large mountains around the world to rescue complete strangers. (Some of these mountains cost clients a pretty penny, too).

My message, especially to those of you newer to this touring / mountaineering game and are quick to judge is this:
If it can happen to Willie, it can happen to anyone. You, me, anyone.
Believe it.

I've reread this post a few times now and I feel like there's a tremendous amount of wisdom in it. Thanks for sharing, TFW.

Also I just looked up Willie, and he clearly knows worlds more about traveling in the mountains than I ever will, or then I would in multiple lifetimes.

I'm just incredibly glad that he survived.

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[jackstraw]

Many of the best and most experienced avi experts have passed over the past 30 yrs I've been in this game. It absolutely can happen to anyone. Today we have more knowledge than ever before, but this continues to occur. It's not foolproof science.

[Lone Star]

kind of tangential?:

-the accidents that have often really stuck with me are the ones where people who likely thought they were in safe zones actually weren't. (East Vail last year, the UDot forecaster on Kessler, Sheep Creek at Loveland Pass, to name a few) this is scary to me because I think I am guilty, myself, of being way more tuned in to avalanche risks when I'm skiing downhill even though the time we all spend exposed to the danger is usually longer than just the skiing part. I imagine the guide here was totally focused on his clients' safety, unaware he was maybe just a few yards off from being in a safe spot. This is not a problem of having different risk tolerances. Instead, risk assessment deserves a closer look. (no comment on the decision to ski this terrain; in this case it would have just been a "near miss" if protocol of one skier at a time hadn't accidentally been breached)

-caltopo shading: considering the 40 ft contour intervals of usgs quads, is the resolution of those maps really so good as to rely on them over a clinometer for making micro route finding decisions?