midlayer/fleece mess... too many models and variants (arcteryx patagonia etc)

**lorcar** · 10-10-2021, 04:43 AM

Hi
from time to time i check brands websites, and i guess they are really trying to come up with new ideas every day, which is great to have the flexibility, but am i the only one who gets lost?
Arcteryx has AR and LT for almost every jacket and now also for fleece
Patagonia started with the Hybrid or Techface and now also the Lightweight version of most popular jackets
I was after something like the old R2 (i planned to buy long, but it seems it doesnt exist anymore)
I have the old R1 pullover hoody (very long, so i tuck in into the pants), i own also the R3 (too heavy), the Arct Proton LT, the MountainEquipment Switch Vest (thanks to this forum), and was thinking to add something which could sit between the R1 and the R3.
So Arcteryx Delta? doesn't look to similar to R1 i own? how would this compare to OLD R2 (assuming i could find one)?
Arcteryx Kyanite?
Or should i simply get another R1 but with full zip (instead of the pullover)? or would you recommend going Hybrid/Techface as well?

As usual, any hint is appreciated
thank you in advance

**gaijin** · 10-10-2021, 06:03 AM

I’m not a gear/brand head for thermals. But I am a fit head.

That R2 looks sick but… patagucci prices make me roll my eyes.

Also— hunt around hunting gear for thermals. Skiing isn’t the only sport to have figured out this tech. Firstlite is rad for wool/nylon blends.

I used to order silk and merino from sierratradingpost before they discontinued. Their product was rad and cheap.

Now I buy merino from fucking Uniqlo because it’s skin tight, long, washable, and cheap enough to buy more of something else.

So many companies have figured out how to make rad fleece (and wool) that it’s just hard to take the big brands seriously anymore.

Hard shells are a different story.

Thermals are like coffee cups these days. Disposable.

**CirqueScaler** · 10-10-2021, 07:08 AM

Oh gosh. "Mess" is the perfect way to describe the category. It is such a headache to figure out. Seems like you're 80% of the way there, though.

What niche are you looking to fill in your wardrobe/layering system? Like for what activity?

**tupp_** · 10-10-2021, 08:40 AM

Been looking at this too.

The best mid layer I have used is the Patagonia Nano-Air Light. The winning feature was the light DWR on the front paired with the mesh back panel to reduce back sweat. It's now been discontinued.

Fleeces could work, like the R1 Air, or there is the Arcteryx practitioner jacket with a slight DWR finish. Nothing I can find has the low-insulation back feature like the Nano-Air Light...

**altacoup** · 10-10-2021, 08:46 AM

Mountainhardware makes the polartec high loft. There’s also a military issue jacket that’s very similar, available via the polartec website. These are the closest thing to an r2 on the market today. The new r2 with the tech face is probably a more versatile jacket but if being used as a mid layer under a shell for skiing won’t breath as well when you want to dump heat via pit zips or opening the chest. I’ve been on this exact same search. The old r2 was just a little warmer than an r1 yet very breathable. Love mine but it’s falling apart.

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**BFD** · 10-10-2021, 09:42 AM

If you are talking about buying a fleece layer just go to the nearest Goodwill.

**Viva** · 10-10-2021, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by BFD

If you are talking about buying a fleece layer just go to the nearest Goodwill.

No shit!

The rest of you are over thinking it.

**kootenayskier** · 10-10-2021, 10:37 AM

Not much of a functional difference between fleeces for use as mid-layer. Pay for style if that's important, or find something practically equivalent for a fraction of the price used (fleece lasts forever), or endless discount sites. Consider wool as a luxurious, non-stink alternative. Faced fleeces add minimal weather resistance for moderate activity in cool/cold conditions, but I prefer soft-shells for this application. Brands love fleeces because of the enormous profit margins.
These look great: https://www.amazon.ca/Amazon-Essenti...34440851&psc=1

**lorcar** · 10-10-2021, 11:58 AM

thanks all
sure, it might be overthinking.
However, being myself also a happy customer of Uniqlo and Decathlon (not sure you have it in USA, it is a french cheap sport retailer, very popular here in Europe) and user of their fleeces, i do believe there is a difference between cheap fleece and those done in Polartec (with all its variants). And we all have items for different temperatures and activities, so i was trying to fix the gap between R1 (old model) and the Arct Proton LT or the R3, that's it.
I guess the cheapest Polartec fleece is the NorthFace 100 Glacier?

**iriponsnow** · 10-10-2021, 12:43 PM

Hahahaha! It’s a mess. I finally came around to thinking of midlayers as soft/warm, not wind resistant.

Like the Patacucci Los Gatos in 1 size up. Hood goes over my helmet & like a Snuggie.

**CirqueScaler** · 10-10-2021, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by tupp_

Been looking at this too.

The best mid layer I have used is the Patagonia Nano-Air Light. The winning feature was the light DWR on the front paired with the mesh back panel to reduce back sweat. It's now been discontinued.

Fleeces could work, like the R1 Air, or there is the Arcteryx practitioner jacket with a slight DWR finish. Nothing I can find has the low-insulation back feature like the Nano-Air Light...

Second this! I use the Patagonia Nano-Air Light Hybrid as my go-tour touring jacket precisely because of the combination of front weather proofing and back perforation. Never have to change my jacket going up or down in 20+ F weather.

The tip to find this piece is to watch slibretti's threads. He posts here, sometimes, but mostly on reddit. /u/slibretti. I have bought two of the NALH (a M then a S) from him for a good price.

**whyturn** · 10-10-2021, 06:56 PM

Norrona alpha hoody has been great. Breathes but also can be warm if used right. Monkey man is warm but 300 weight Lilly too warm

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**XXX-er** · 10-10-2021, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by lorcar

thanks all sure, it might be overthinking.

definatley

IME for touring I start out wearing a base/ soft shell/ puffy, I shed the puffy in the 1st 10 minutes and I make enough heat to stay warm like that, if we stop for any length of time I put on the puffy again and thats it

right now I am juggling a couple of mid layers for mountain biking with the temp just above zero C. I might be . wearing a couple of mid layers

but ya its just whatever works for you

**lorcar** · 10-11-2021, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

wearing a base/ soft shell/ puffy, I shed the puffy

just for sake of curiosity: what is your soft shell? what your puffy?
i still mix up in my mind the soft shell with light puffy, so for example i never saw a puffy over a NanoAir or a Proton.

**rob stokes** · 10-11-2021, 09:37 AM

Look at outdoor research stuff, great quality and price much easier to swallow than Arcteryx and Patagonia. The Vigor plus could be a good match?

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**TAFKALVS** · 10-11-2021, 10:06 AM

Polartech Alpha and Patagonia Air have largely replaced fleece in this category for me, as its not as bunchy under layers.

Alpha actually looks suspiciously lot like the r2 high loft pile if you cut one of those jackets open. But you get the advantage of a slick nylon or poly face, and a little wind resistance. Which means when moving in cold weather I often just wear an Alpha or Nano Air jacket and skip out on the shell that I would have worn over a fleece.

Have you looked at the Patagonia Nano Air LT or Mountain Equipment Switch jacket?

My favorite fleece fabric (not sure if you can still buy it) as the next step in warmth above an r1 is the original polartec powerstretch with the smooth face. That stuff is great, very warm and the smooth face and tighter fit of most garments sewn out of it reduces bunching.

Apparently I don't like layers that bunch on each other.

**XXX-er** · 10-11-2021, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by lorcar

just for sake of curiosity: what is your soft shell? what your puffy?
i still mix up in my mind the soft shell with light puffy, so for example i never saw a puffy over a NanoAir or a Proton.

The models of what I'm using right now are not relevant cuz its all a few years old and I actualy pay for this stuff, so IMO don't get hung up on brands or models, do get hung up on how they will perform

right now a patagonnia soft shell, I've also had Marmot/ another patagonnia, I want something that is 1 light layer/ very breathable/ wind and water resistant, it's for being on the move, IME any of them work at -25C chugging up a mountain where I don't wana sweat and I don't wana freeze, also good for xc skiing or biking in spring or fall ... anything thats on the move

to start out or for prolonged stops the puffy goes OVER the softshell cuz its too much hassle/ too cold to swap layers and have the shell on the outside. I use a technical type (light weight with a hood) light puffy for warmer than -10 and a heavyier puffy for colder than -10, I buy puffies when they come on sale in the spring so the brand is whichever I can find on sale at 40- 50% off in the local gear store mtn hardwear/ Faction/ RAB

I want soft shell with no insulation of any kind on the move and a puffy for warmth when I'm not moving, I understand that recently there maybe some hybrid products that blur the lines but i don't use them cuz I actulay pay for this stuff and nobody gave me any to use, ymmv

edit: I should add that IME fleece of any kind is too heavy/ too warm for being on the move as in ski touring which I assume we are talking about but I do use fleece for other things

**lorcar** · 10-11-2021, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier

Have you looked at the Patagonia Nano Air LT or Mountain Equipment Switch jacket?

i have the Arc. Proton LT (which should be comparable to the Nano Air) and also the ME Switch Vest.
So really after a fleece which would sit between the old R1 (which i also have) and the Proton (as i write it, i feel an idiot)

**TAFKALVS** · 10-11-2021, 11:23 AM

Why?

**random_watcher** · 10-11-2021, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by lorcar

i have the Arc. Proton LT (which should be comparable to the Nano Air) and also the ME Switch Vest.
So really after a fleece which would sit between the old R1 (which i also have) and the Proton (as i write it, i feel an idiot)

If you are getting on well with your ME Switch Vest (I have one and rate it) then Mountain Equipment do a Concordia Fleece which uses a Polartec high loft fleece very similar to an R2.

**CirqueScaler** · 10-11-2021, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by lorcar

i have the Arc. Proton LT (which should be comparable to the Nano Air) and also the ME Switch Vest.
So really after a fleece which would sit between the old R1 (which i also have) and the Proton (as i write it, i feel an idiot)

I have never owned a proton, but I do have an R1. It seems like you want something warmer than the proton? Maybe try the Arcteryx Atom LT.

It would help if you could identify what activity you want to be doing in these pieces. Are you exercising or sitting on a chairlift (not that that is totally sedentary of course)?

And again, gonna plug the homie slibretti. If price is an obstacle, just have a piece in mind and watch his threads for two months. You'll get it at half price. Or pm him to ask if he can be on the lookout. https://www.reddit.com/user/slibretti/posts/

**tupp_** · 10-11-2021, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by CirqueScaler

Second this! I use the Patagonia Nano-Air Light Hybrid as my go-tour touring jacket precisely because of the combination of front weather proofing and back perforation. Never have to change my jacket going up or down in 20+ F weather.

The tip to find this piece is to watch slibretti's threads. He posts here, sometimes, but mostly on reddit. /u/slibretti. I have bought two of the NALH (a M then a S) from him for a good price.

Thanks for the tip!

**ghosthop** · 10-11-2021, 06:39 PM

Pre R1 there was the Piton, and it is still the shit. Best midlayer ever.

Patagonia made a softshell called the Levitation hoody, pre Knifeblade that was unlined, no zips, and was perfect. Like all great things it lasted for a season or two and never sold.

Both were made for ice climbing, had great fit, no bullshit. Now all Patagonia is for fat fucks, too expensive, and overwrought.

**iriponsnow** · 10-11-2021, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by ghosthop

Pre R1 there was the Piton, and it is still the shit. Best midlayer ever…. Now all Patagonia is for fat fucks, too expensive, and overwrought.

YES! I Still have 2 Pitons that are flat out amazing, but they don’t make anything close now.

**pfluffenmeister** · 10-11-2021, 07:16 PM

The old Mountain Hardware Desna is the shit.
Polartec Powerstretch; smooth face, fuzzy inside.
Scuba style hood with zip up balaclava neck.
New Desna sucks.

MH Monkey Man Lite is pretty good.
Scuba hood.

Mountain Equipment Eclipse is very good.
Scuba hood with balaclava style zip up neck.
Can be found in full and half zip.