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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by EZB View Post
    I was prolly incorrect...(...and MultiVerse and ml242 are also wondering about this).

    https://abc7ny.com/gabby-petito-disa...drie/11036257/

    I'm now convinced the witness who the one cop phoned mid-traffic-stop-encounter...was NOT the 911 witness but the other one in the link. It's also quite possible that the cop then misunderstood/miscommunicated that (there were two) to the other cops.

    BTW which witness's info is more alarming? 20/20 hindsight and all, if I were a cop and pondering the coulda/woulda/shoulda then I'da wished I'd subtly and in a build-up sorta way...
    Asked the GF about these control issues the BF had!

    "Ma'am, when you talk to your parents (she actually called them from the PD car), what are some of the things you confide to them that are stressors caused by BF?" Etc. Like someone else wrote, BF demanding to control the car keys, the money, and both of their phones is extremely unhealthy. Too bad the cops didn't really know this. Her parents might not have known this.

    Additionally, it would motivate her to stealthily have a second key and a secret phone, but he better not find out.
    The way I see it a 911 call led them to pull them over. It was this one or another one other that wasn't released. But we have this one that involved her reportedly getting slapped. Why do they immediately determine that she was the primary aggressor? In her own property no less. Maybe MV can illuminate what I'm missing.
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  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Ok, that's where the story starts, though, isn't it? I mean, if a person doesn't have the radar or the self-awareness to spot that level of crazy at a distance, they might not see it coming before violence starts (or maybe another unacceptable threshold is crossed?) So once that happens, what stops a person from running? What makes it impossible to take advantage of any opening?

    I'm not sure this is unique to women as much as to victims of past abuse, but either way.
    Been steering clear of this thread for a number of reasons but i have to ask, are you pulling a montucky just asking questions or do you not have experience with friends in unhealthy relationships?

    It's not always something you hear about directly, but sometimes there are things you notice or people in your community comment on it. I'm not talking about necessarily violent relationships, sometimes it's just an unhealthy dynamic. Which is to be distinguished from not approving of a partner or life choices. And since it's on a spectrum is easy to have a fixed snapshot in your mind as things change. I dunno relationships are complicated, I was threatened with a gun during a breakup once. It had taken me a while to see the damage she carried from past relationships and I wasn't in a place to be a sufficiently helpful partner in working through things. I elected to get out but she got really attached in not a very long time, the threat of losing me led to the threatening from her. I could see how if she got so attached to me in that time that it would be easy for her to end up finding partners who took advantage of that, and it had been a bit of a recurring cycle from what she told me.

    As a note I do think 'gaslighting' has been thrown around too much recently. It's different from lying.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    The way I see it a 911 call led them to pull them over. It was this one or another one other that wasn't released. But we have this one that involved her reportedly getting slapped. Why do they immediately determine that she was the primary aggressor? In her own property no less. Maybe MV can illuminate what I'm missing.
    I don't think you're missing anything other than he had the scars and she says he never hit her. The cops kept asking "Did he hit you, though? It’s okay if you’re saying you hit him, and I understand if he hit you, but we want to know the truth, if he actually hit you." ... "Did he slap your face or what?" "Is it Brian. Is he usually patient with you?"

    The cops go on to discuss how they don't think either is telling the entire truth but there's not much they can do in that situation other than press charges against her:

    "And I’m sure it was a little of both and usually the truth is somewhere between. He’s probably trying not to say that he hit her because he probably doesn’t want her charged with assault, domestic assault. He probably would rather say she pulled the wheel than hit him. You know what I mean?"

    "So unfortunately for her, just because he’s bigger and stronger even if he’s not willing to press charges, we can’t treat this differently than if it was a male on female violence. And we’re going to have to charge her and we can do a citation if there’s some arrangement that they could be made to separate them. "

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    Why do they immediately determine that she was the primary aggressor?
    The main reason is the guy had non-defensive wounds on him, she didn't.

    One of the 911 callers said that they were not sure if the male was hitting or pushing the female away defensively.

    Officers saw him run into the curb while being pulled over. She claimed it was because she hit him, he claimed it was because she grabbed the wheel. Either of those scenarios is more likely than the guy hits a curb on his own with flashers on behind him.

  5. #705
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    soooooo nobody has anything regarding misogynistic posts? Carry on then.....
    What we have here is an intelligence failure. You may be familiar with staring directly at that when shaving. .
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  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    Been steering clear of this thread for a number of reasons but i have to ask, are you pulling a montucky just asking questions or do you not have experience with friends in unhealthy relationships?
    To some extent I'm just asking a question, but the motivation for it is that I do know people who have been victimized and I'd like to better understand the failure to do something that seems really clear from the outside. Obviously it's complicated and we're not going to solve it, but it'd be nice to understand it a little better.

    We all know there are other sources, but I think (in addition to being super great at bitching at each other) people who have any knowledge of the heuristic traps that kill on mountains have a unique take on the challenge of thinking rationally in emotional situations. Thanks for offering yours.

  7. #707
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    Right on. I figured you were being serious about wanting to know, but on the first reading I didn't know if this was something you had an opinion on and were asking leading questions. I did think your comment linking heuristic traps and comorbidities was a surprisingly thought provoking one that got lost in the shit of the other thread. I think it could be worth expanding on that idea a little bit in a month or three. Possibly in the slide zone for minimal thread cunting.

    I'm not sure my take is valuable, but it's something I did and can post about without feeling like I'm airing someone else's relationship story without permission.

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Ok, that's where the story starts, though, isn't it? I mean, if a person doesn't have the radar or the self-awareness to spot that level of crazy at a distance, they might not see it coming before violence starts (or maybe another unacceptable threshold is crossed?) So once that happens, what stops a person from running? What makes it impossible to take advantage of any opening?

    I'm not sure this is unique to women as much as to victims of past abuse, but either way.
    Well it escalates slowly. The person is always super sorry and usually love bombs after.

    Lives are intertwined, maybe there is financial dependence or kids.

    The abuser usually has a real great sob story...

    Not everyone stays, but some do...

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvelinusconfluentus View Post
    I can.

    It starts with a victim that already has a low self esteem, or perhaps, past trauma. Maybe someone just going through a rough spot, maybe.

    Usually, emotionally healthy people run long before entanglement.

    Anyways, the abuser comes on super strong. Maybey they shower with complements. Maybe they solve some major problems for the victim. Either way, they start off treating the abused in a way that makes them feel really good in ways they aren't use to.

    Once they have the victim, and it is debatable if they even do this consciously, probably some do, some don't, but they start withholding and/or hurting.

    Maybe they dont answer the phone for 5 days when you use to talk every day. Maybe they insult you in some way they know will be hurtful. It usually starts small and if you call them on it they gaslight, get pissed, start a fight, escalate, etc but usually in a way that is super triggering to their victim.

    The best manipulater is inconsistant reward. It makes people crazy. So after the blow out they will be super nice again but as time goes on the abuse gets worse and the nice less frequent.

    While this is going on they are also isolating the person from their friends and family. Ususlly the friends and family see through the abusers bullshit before the victim and that starts driving the wedge...

    Obviously, toxic relationships are usually the result of two people acting in unhealthy ways, but you ever notice how some people never have the crazy ex? They run before they sink their teeth in.

    And once the violence starts it doesn't matter how crazy the non violent one is...
    So in what way could this go any differently?
    Specifically, what could someone (other than one of the two parties to the relationship) have done to change this outcome?

    Ive tried to speak up before to a friend about her unhealthy relationship and instead I caught shit for it. At that point, nothing I could do but walk away.

    Relationships and mental health are two things that 1) are very personal, 2) are not very transparent to outside parties, and 3) throw logic and reason out the fucking window, but theyíre the key drivers in these situations. So how does one help someone who doesnít want to (or doesnít think they want to) be helped

    None of the people involved are going along with it because they think itís ok or because the tone on an Internet forum isnít supportive enough. The abusers are quite aware of what theyíre doing (hence cutting people out of the victimís life, etc) and the victims as you said, are caught up in the cycle of abuse and unable to get out on their own. So how do external parties help break the cycle?

  10. #710
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    We're not going to solve every social crisis on the planet... Did they find the scumbag yet?
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvelinusconfluentus View Post
    Well it escalates slowly. The person is always super sorry and usually love bombs after.

    Lives are intertwined, maybe there is financial dependence or kids.

    The abuser usually has a real great sob story...

    Not everyone stays, but some do...
    Since youve painted some people in this thread with the "mysoginist" label, can you please expand on this, MtG?????
    What we have here is an intelligence failure. You may be familiar with staring directly at that when shaving. .
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  12. #712
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    Bottom line is that only two people really know what happened, speculation is all anyone has to post.

    One is dead and the other is missing and presumed to be dead.

    Be prepared to never know what happened.

    Dr Phil likely spent an hour preaching and speculating.

    Somehow that sounds familiar.
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  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    So in what way could this go any differently?
    Specifically, what could someone (other than one of the two parties to the relationship) have done to change this outcome?

    Ive tried to speak up before to a friend about her unhealthy relationship and instead I caught shit for it. At that point, nothing I could do but walk away.

    Relationships and mental health are two things that 1) are very personal, 2) are not very transparent to outside parties, and 3) throw logic and reason out the fucking window, but theyíre the key drivers in these situations. So how does one help someone who doesnít want to (or doesnít think they want to) be helped

    None of the people involved are going along with it because they think itís ok or because the tone on an Internet forum isnít supportive enough. The abusers are quite aware of what theyíre doing (hence cutting people out of the victimís life, etc) and the victims as you said, are caught up in the cycle of abuse and unable to get out on their own. So how do external parties help break the cycle?
    Honestly, I dont know.

    Find a way to make parents healthy and emotionally intelligent so they dont abuse their kids or their partner in front of their kids, its a cycle. That means remedies for things that cause excessive stress on parents...

    Support emotional intelligence type education in schools.

    Believe people when they say they have been hurt.

    Be kind. Be available. Stop tearing people down.

    Allow for emotions. Nobody is crazy or "hysterical" for having strong feelings.

    I honestly don't know, but its a society problem.

    Listen?

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by seano732 View Post
    Since youve painted some people in this thread with the "mysoginist" label, can you please expand on this, MtG?????
    I'm not going to go back through and quote all the misogynist posts. You can look at the ones I already quoted if you'd like.

  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by seano732 View Post
    soooooo nobody has anything regarding misogynistic posts? Carry on then.....
    The irony of the turbo-woke, everything-is-misogyny, women’s-studies dept. at the University types, is that they make themselves surly and disagreeable, then blame the negative energy they get back on misogyny.

    I’m getting a misogyny rap here, but really the only class of women I dislike as a group are the minority of them who make a lifestyle out of living in that cycle of being defensive and accusatory, men recoiling from the defensive and accusatory tone, then blaming the recoil on misogyny, reinforcing further defensive accusatory tacts. The vast majority of women who have found ways to coexist gracefully or at least without inherent persistent beef with the male half of the population, I find mostly wonderful.

    Here’s my cycle: I have tons of women I like and love, and I’m cool with women in general. I get told by you that I’m a misogynist, which I immediately know to be bullshit. I don’t like people who bullshit me, and especially people who try to bullshit me about me, so now I don’t like you. You think me not liking you is proof of misogyny because for some reason you focus more on your gender group identity than on your individual interactions.

  16. #716
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    My mom had an asshole boyfriend when I was 12-16. He was emotionally abusive to both of us. He was a small man and even smaller emotionally. I look back and wonder why I put up with all that I did. When your in it, things look different. He hit me twice. My mom sided with him. I internalized it. The second time I was old enough and big enough that I could have cleaned his clock. I did nothing. I was frozen. I was in in disbelief partially. And I think I didn't want to make trouble for my mom. Which is silly because he was a total freeloader.
    And I had a hard time accepting that that's how I reacted. On top of that the adults who should have cared did nothing when I told them. When I was 15 I finally figured out that I didn't have to put up with his shit and moved in with my dad. Moving out put things in motion for my mom to get rid of that loser. I was no longer in the middle and mom had to deal with it or change it. She changed it. Unfortunately that shit left scars. I went through some pretty self-destructive years. Living with my dad wasn't that helpful either. And one learns things that aren't helpful when living in an abusive environment at a time that one is supposed to be maturing. I'm not as patient with those around me as I should be. Ripple affects.

  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by east or bust View Post
    Youíre living in Bozeman right? Did you grow up there? Did your dad grow up there?

    If thatís asking too much kindly tell me to fuck off, but Iím kind of curious if it aligns with my own experiences.
    We live in Helena, and my kids attend the high school known as the "redneck" high school. That is, most kids who live out in the valley and outside of town go to this school, along with a lot of the "townie" kids. I grew up in suburban Minneapolis, but both my parents grew up in rural North Dakota near the Canadian border.

  18. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvelinusconfluentus View Post
    I'm not going to go back through and quote all the misogynist posts. You can look at the ones I already quoted if you'd like.
    I have and they don’t even come close to the definition of “misogynist” posts…..So you’re just another trolling alias, amirite?
    What we have here is an intelligence failure. You may be familiar with staring directly at that when shaving. .
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  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I don't profess to know anything about this case (the whole "missing pretty blond white woman gets all the news coverage" thing bothers me too much to read, even if it is a tragedy for her family and friends). So I don't know the state of their relationship, what happened on that traffic stop, or whatever. But the notion that someone living in a cycle of abuse could/should easily "just leave" when they seem to have the chance is woefully uninformed and downright offensive. Any one of you who thinks it is that simple should educate yourselves on domestic violence, because your take here is a really bad look.
    ^ A nutshell summary of the problem that bears repeating

    Salve's longer post (i can't find at the moment) is a illustrative example of some abusive relationships, and can apply to anyone in one.

    I deleted an attempt at the misogyny question, not sure I can do it justice. Some of us want to learn, so I hope someone can write it well. Until then, listen to your GFs, sisters, daughters, wives. You'll slowly catch on to inequalities that should not exist.

  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    The irony of the turbo-woke, everything-is-misogyny, women’s-studies dept. at the University types, is that they make themselves surly and disagreeable, then blame the negative energy they get back on misogyny.

    I’m getting a misogyny rap here, but really the only class of women I dislike as a group are the minority of them who make a lifestyle out of living in that cycle of being defensive and accusatory, men recoiling from the defensive and accusatory tone, then blaming the recoil on misogyny, reinforcing further defensive accusatory tacts. The vast majority of women who have found ways to coexist gracefully or at least without inherent persistent beef with the male half of the population, I find mostly wonderful.

    Here’s my cycle: I have tons of women I like and love, and I’m cool with women in general. I get told by you that I’m a misogynist, which I immediately know to be bullshit. I don’t like people who bullshit me, and especially people who try to bullshit me about me, so now I don’t like you. You think me not liking you is proof of misogyny because for some reason you focus more on your gender group identity than on your individual interactions.
    I honestly believe you don't hate women. I've said my piece about your posts, as have some others so I'm going to leave that in the past.

    I just want to say I don't hate you and I have a lot of empathy for you. I honestly think you truly believe what you are saying and I hope you can heal and expand your ability to emphasize some day because you are a victim of the things I get so angry about.

  21. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    To some extent I'm just asking a question, but the motivation for it is that I do know people who have been victimized and I'd like to better understand the failure to do something that seems really clear from the outside. Obviously it's complicated and we're not going to solve it, but it'd be nice to understand it a little better.
    A common stat that is used (so I assume it has basis in fact) is that on average, it takes a victim 7 times to leave before they leave for good. So when people here say "she should have just left", they are demonstrating their naivete and lack of understand about what a DV situation is like. Another thing is that the most dangerous time for the victim in a DV relationship is when they actually leave. That may very well be why this woman was found dead, she may have tried to leave.

    So yeah, sure, on the one hand saying "she should have left" is right. But placing blame on her for what happened, either directly or impliedly, because she didn't leave when she "had the chance", shows a lack of understanding of the complex problem that DV is.

    I am no expert, but I used to work in a field that required DV training and the ability identify possible DV situations and victims. And have interviewed and talked with many DV victims. And if you're inclined to think that these victims are dumb, not strong, etc, you'd be wrong. Two of my coworkers at that job, two super smart, super strong women, were both survivors of domestic violence relationships. It was a serious eye opener for me when I found that out.

    If you truly are curious, there are a lot of resources out there for basic education, they're not hard to find.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  22. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    We're not going to solve every social crisis on the planet... Did they find the scumbag yet?
    I guess not..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  23. #723
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    Hold on dude. I have a wife and twin teenage daughters. I am well aware of gender inequality, misogyny, SM, and the like…..The issue here is we have in all likely hood a banned poster, posting under an alias, leveling baseless accusations in what is otherwise a contemporaneous, important issue. That’s it. If the Kraken has evidence of gross misogyny posted in this thread, I’m all eyes. If not, then let’s all move on and hope they catch the fucker that killed this young woman. Carry on.
    What we have here is an intelligence failure. You may be familiar with staring directly at that when shaving. .
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  24. #724
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    When you speak to them do you use a part of their anatomy as a pejorative, kooky?
    Re-read your own posts in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvelinusconfluentus View Post
    I'm not going to go back through and quote all the misogynist posts. You can look at the ones I already quoted if you'd like.
    no refutation of the Mtngirl moniker.
    "With Hitler, the more I learn about the guy, the more I don't care for him." -Norm Macdonald

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