Mysterious death of entire family while hiking

**ötzi** · 10-21-2021, 09:13 PM

Does heat stroke leave conclusive evidence when it occurs? Or any physical evidence?

**muted reborn** · 10-21-2021, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by ötzi

Or any physical evidence?

Like footprints or a murder weapon?

**waveshello** · 10-21-2021, 10:08 PM

I've had some troubling imaginings about this situation.

What if the baby got heatstroke, parents try to save it and fail. Then, overcome with dispair and guilt, are not able to continue. In the same situation, not sure if I'd want to go on either.

The baby is the weak link here--babies don't regulate temp as well as adults and if something was preventing it or it was in some way unable to receive fluids, it could have passed quickly in the heat.

Sad, sad, sad.

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**subtle plague** · 10-21-2021, 10:25 PM

Still no result?

I go with alien Sex Crime. Space cosby gave them sleeping gas and left them there.

**Meathelmet** · 10-22-2021, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by subtle plague

Space cosby gave them sleeping gas...

That'd be my worst nightmare: Getting probed by Space Cosby and not being conscious while...errmm...nevermind.

Look, a dime.

**John Coqtoastine** · 10-22-2021, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by old goat

Anyone who doesn't think that heat stroke is a reasonable cause of death should probably only hike with guides and only in places with sidewalks.

Absolute gold right here.

**BmillsSkier** · 10-22-2021, 06:08 AM

I’m confused, did they say it was heat stroke or do we not know still?

**ThreeRidges** · 10-22-2021, 07:57 AM

Confirmed: https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...family-on-hike

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**JimmyCarter** · 10-22-2021, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

I’m confused, did they say it was heat stroke or do we not know still?

Yes

**SumJongGuy** · 10-22-2021, 08:21 AM

It says "ran out of water". On a 109 degree day that is definitely fatal out in the middle of nowhere. Really tragic...

**From_the_NEK** · 10-22-2021, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

It says "ran out of water". On a 109 degree day that is definitely fatal out in the middle of nowhere. Really tragic...

The temp seems to keep going up with each page in this thread. 3-4 more pages and it will be up to 120 degrees.

**californiagrown** · 10-22-2021, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

"Although temperatures reached as high as 109 degrees the day the family hiked, dehydration was deemed unlikely because there was still water in the family’s hydration pack, the Chronicle reported."

Originally Posted by GiBo

That apple news article saying it was up to 109 that day didn't ring true to me. I live in the general region and if it was 109 up there, it would have been 115 plus where I live and we haven't had a heat wave like that recently. I looked it up and it was a high of 94 in Briceburg that day, which is down the hill a few miles and about 500ft lower. So I'm thinking no way on the heat. I'd bet it wasn't over 90 in that canyon. Not sure what AN was looking at.

Plus a river/creek followed the trail most of the way apparently. Shit dont add up!

**berko** · 10-22-2021, 10:46 AM

If nothing else, the tragic death of this family produced the term 'space cosby,' so its not like they died for nothing.

**MarcusBrody** · 10-22-2021, 10:58 AM

Looking at data from the weather station at El Portal, which is fairly close, I believe the sheriff department's estimate that it was in the low 100s and it might have been even a bit hotter. I also know that heat stroke is no joke. Since I moved to the desert, 1/4 of my year is basically built around avoiding it.

But I still think it's weird. Both the way they were found, that ALL of them didn't make it (including the dog with the river nearby, though dogs are pretty heat sensitive), and that the sheriff's department initially seemed to put heat stroke as an outside possibility given the facts, then basically declaring definitively that it was it after not being able to find evidence of anything else. Now, I'm a Bayesian at heart and am happy to take evidence that other elements of the potential solution set are unlikely as making the remaining options more probable, so I would have been fine with the Sheriff's Department announcing that they think that heat stroke/dehydration was the most likely cause, rather than definitively announcing it was (unless there was some later evidence I missed that they used to conclude that rather than just negative evidence for other options).

**SumJongGuy** · 10-22-2021, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Plus a river/creek followed the trail most of the way apparently. Shit dont add up!

I can testify that the only time I ever got remotely sick in 12 years of scout hikes was when we got to our planned stop and the creek was BARELY flowing at all. Past years it had been fine there but this time somewhat stagnant. It was hot and my son didn't wait the full 20 minutes for the bleach to work. He got sick an hour after drinking some water. He drank some more later to rehydrate and was fine then. I had the runs the following day as did a couple other adults. So, even if the map shows a river, in a dry spell that might not have worked out for them..

**Dantheman** · 10-22-2021, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by ötzi

Does heat stroke leave conclusive evidence when it occurs? Or any physical evidence?

Probably no evidence that would survive a few days of decomp in mid-summer temps.

Originally Posted by muted reborn

As for the dog not going for water, I'm pretty sure my dog would never leave my side if i died. But I would never have brought her on any hike on a day more than 100 degrees because that would definitely kill her.

Originally Posted by MarcusBrody

though dogs are pretty heat sensitive

My dog would 100% die of heat stress long before I was ever in serious trouble. 80* F is pushing it for him. And if I was dead he'd think I was napping and would lay at my side until he died.

**SumJongGuy** · 10-22-2021, 12:40 PM

What's weird to me is how they all died together at close to the same time??? It's weird that when the first person got in trouble nobody else went to try and find help. Also, is there zero cell service where they found them?

**Falcon3** · 10-22-2021, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Svengali

Anecdote: A friend of mine who also happens to be an ER doc in Flagstaff, once told me that electrolyte imbalances send way more Grand Canyon hikers/tourists to the ER than dehydration

Can confirm, worked with the PSAR folks at the Canyon a couple years. People think chugging water is the right move, then their brains act all funny when there’s no salt left in their bodies from peeing and sweating.

**AK47bp** · 10-22-2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon3

Can confirm, worked with the PSAR folks at the Canyon a couple years. People think chugging water is the right move, then their brains act all funny when there’s no salt left in their bodies from peeing and sweating.

Can you drink pee to get that salt back?

Asking for a friend.

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**bodywhomper** · 10-22-2021, 12:48 PM

My understanding of heat stroke is that hydration may not be enough. Emersion in cold water to decrease body temp, hydration, and call for help are what I’ve always learned as the proper first aid. And that the effects on cognitive function could result in easy miscalculations of the seriousness of what they were experiencing. Sad story.

I had a friend die of heat stroke on the job during a TX heat wave. He was sent to his vehicle to get something to drink to hydrate, was later found by a coworker in a ditch next to their cars, and later died in the hospital. If I remember correctly, there were several deaths in the general area during that particular heat wave.

**Dantheman** · 10-22-2021, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

My understanding of heat stroke is that hydration may not be enough. Emersion in cold water to decrease body temp, hydration, and call for help are what I’ve always learned as the proper first aid. And that the effects on cognitive function could result in easy miscalculations of the seriousness of what they were experiencing. Sad story.

All correct. Heat stroke is a shockingly fast death, especially if hyponatremia occurs concurrently.

**Mazderati** · 10-22-2021, 01:02 PM

There are well-known stories of people found frozen to death with their clothes removed and folded beside them. Maybe similar reasoning issues happened.

**fomofo** · 10-22-2021, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Svengali

Anecdote: A friend of mine who also happens to be an ER doc in Flagstaff, once told me that electrolyte imbalances send way more Grand Canyon hikers/tourists to the ER than dehydration

Originally Posted by Falcon3

Can confirm, worked with the PSAR folks at the Canyon a couple years. People think chugging water is the right move, then their brains act all funny when there’s no salt left in their bodies from peeing and sweating.

Gatorade. It's got electrolytes.

Sometimes that's actually the correct answer.

I remember the original Gatorade; it had a decidedly strange salty taste. It's definitely moved further toward a sweet soft drink at this point, but I guess it's still got some things in the mix that make it a better alternative than pure water in stressful heat situations. I used to play a lot of tennis in the summer when it would be 90 degrees with 90 percent humidity, and I found Gatorade diluted 50/50 with water did the trick nicely to keep me hydrated and give me a little energy.

**Kinnikinnick** · 10-22-2021, 02:02 PM

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...le-dehydration

Read people, read.

They hiked down into a gorge 2000’ and then had to hike back up/out in the heat. Ran out of water and collapsed 1.6 miles from their car.

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**JayPowHound** · 10-22-2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by fomofo

Gatorade. It's got electrolytes.

Sometimes that's actually the correct answer.

I remember the original Gatorade; it had a decidedly strange salty taste. It's definitely moved further toward a sweet soft drink at this point, but I guess it's still got some things in the mix that make it a better alternative than pure water in stressful heat situations. I used to play a lot of tennis in the summer when it would be 90 degrees with 90 percent humidity, and I found Gatorade diluted 50/50 with water did the trick nicely to keep me hydrated and give me a little energy.

Works great for a hangover too. Way better than straight water. Water is what's in the toilet. It's all about the Electrolytes.