Collegge

[idahospud]

I guess my point is that if you are smart and work hard school can/should be a springboard to some level of success. I certainly did not pick up on this fact until I was far too old.

Apparently my doctor/lawyer friends are not the norm because they are successful and happy?

Obvious disclaimer: Don't take career advice from me. Just sharing my experience having seen lifelong friends take various different paths than I.

For all the words I wrote, my conclusion was the point I wanted to make, it just took a while to get there.

For the lawyers, yeah, I'd argue they're not the norm. Most of the docs I know are happy and successful, but there are plenty who aren't. But for all of 'em, I bet that a huge part of their success and happiness relates to really loving what they do, at least at some level. Working hard in school (or at anything) is easier when you love the stuff you're doing. That's not news to anybody.

I'll add my own disclaimer: don't take career advice from me, either. I spent a long time getting a PhD in a technical field, worked in industry using that PhD for a while, and realized I hated it for a handful of reasons. So now I'm doing something else entirely and life is good.

Haven't really followed the entire thread but it seems his passion is skiing, so MSU is the right place regardless of degree or cost. Choosing a degree your freshman year is more an exercise in long term planning, but really he has plenty of time to find his path. I know plenty of people who switched majors 3-4 times (I think they all ended up with business degrees though). Fuck all these bankers talking about return on investment and blah blah blah. It's the right investment if you want to build your life around skiing and living in the west. If you're facing falling deep in debt, take a year to work and get residency. It's not that hard. Or just move to NC because it has nice beaches

PS SYF, if you want to rip around BB sometime hit me up

100% agreed. I don't get the sense SYF is after a big paycheck at all. Figuring out what degree will let him live the lifestyle he wants is the smart move, at least in the view from my little corner of this place.

[billyk]

As tempting as it is to criticize our young friend’s choices, compared to some of the mistakes I made at his age, he’s doing golden. Party on!

[El Chupacabra]

I've heard this a LOT from people who never went all in and finished law school/med school passed the bar/completed their residency.. I've never heard it once from the dozens of people family and friends who did it. Most of them did end up taking 5+ years to fully pay off the student loans.

So, I'll take the word of people I know who DID that over that of some outsider or observer's view. Anyone out there practicing law or medicine right now that would drop out and flip burgers or pound shingles instead knowing what they know now??

I'll wait..

How do you know idahospud isn't speaking from experience?

Here's mine, and I'm sure I've posted it before: law school sucks.
The practice of law sucks -- it is high stress, it might be high pay (or it might not), it is long hours, it will be tedious some or much of the time.
Dealing with opposing counsel sucks, much of the time.
Dealing with discovery bullshit sucks.
Dealing with demanding (yet occasionally non-paying) clients sucks.
Dealing with late-paying clients sucks.
Dealing with having to attract and retain clients sucks.
Dealing with biased or stupid judges sucks.
Dealing with firm politics sucks. Maybe you'll be lucky and won't ever have to work for the demanding workaholic partner.

If you think you want to be a lawyer, work on figuring out why, and think long and hard about whether your answer to that question is satisfactory to you. If it's your passion to go become a prosecutor and put away the bad guys, great, do it. If it's "I dunno what else to do, I don't like blood so med school is out, guess I'll go to law school" -- don't do it.

Would I drop out of practicing law to flip burgers or pound shingles? No.
Would I drop out of practicing law because it sucks and I don't want to do it anymore? Yes, and I did.

[idahospud]

I've heard this a LOT from people who never went all in and finished law school/med school passed the bar/completed their residency.. I've never heard it once from the dozens of people family and friends who did it. Most of them did end up taking 5+ years to fully pay off the student loans.

So, I'll take the word of people I know who DID that over that of some outsider or observer's view. Anyone out there practicing law or medicine right now that would drop out and flip burgers or pound shingles instead knowing what they know now??

I'll wait..

Confirmation bias is a bitch. You must know an interesting cohort of docs and lawyers because the ones I know, even the successful and happy ones, are the sources for my outsider opinion on this. I don't know anyone who dropped out of law or med school, so it's not like I'm getting bad information from people who couldn't hack it for one reason or another.

There's also a pretty broad spectrum between practicing medicine and flipping burgers, but again that's just my opinion, maybe there's not.

How do you know idahospud isn't speaking from experience?

Here's mine, and I'm sure I've posted it before: law school sucks.
The practice of law sucks -- it is high stress, it might be high pay (or it might not), it is long hours, it will be tedious some or much of the time.
Dealing with opposing counsel sucks, much of the time.
Dealing with discovery bullshit sucks.
Dealing with demanding (yet occasionally non-paying) clients sucks.
Dealing with late-paying clients sucks.
Dealing with having to attract and retain clients sucks.
Dealing with biased or stupid judges sucks.
Dealing with firm politics sucks. Maybe you'll be lucky and won't ever have to work for the demanding workaholic partner.

If you think you want to be a lawyer, work on figuring out why, and think long and hard about whether your answer to that question is satisfactory to you. If it's your passion to go become a prosecutor and put away the bad guys, great, do it. If it's "I dunno what else to do, I don't like blood so med school is out, guess I'll go to law school" -- don't do it.

Would I drop out of practicing law to flip burgers or pound shingles? No.
Would I drop out of practicing law because it sucks and I don't want to do it anymore? Yes, and I did.

You sound a whole lot like the people I know, which is to say you're actually being honest about how hard it is. Also, high five for being a member of the "it sucked so I stopped doing it" club. Not an easy leap to make.

[SumJongGuy]

There are also tons of MDs and dentists dropping out of private practice because the overhead, especially insurance, is crushing them. Crushing as in, not losing money but not earning as much as they would like to carry all that excess legwork.

Point is that most high paying jobs ae also high stress, higher risk financially. Most take a lot of education just to get your foot in the door. If that's not for you, then neither is that kind of income potential..

Personally I'm happy with a lower stress moderate income gig. I took a gap decade before going to graduate school. I finished with no debt but I was quite privileged in many ways. Not trust fund privileged but army brat (West Point Grad's kid) privileged.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

If I knew what I did now when I went to college it wouldn't have been near as much fun.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

For what its worth my one buddy is an ER doc in Denver, paid off all his loans in less than 3 years, now fucking banks, and is seemingly always in Hawaii, Mexico, Aspen etc for 10 days at a time. Dude worked his ass off did a Baltimore residency and figured it the fuck out.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[ex-powderbroker]

ER doc seems like the way to go.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Here's something - maybe he doesn't want to be a doctor.

[total_immortal]

Right? He probably wants to be a dentist like the rest of us.

[ex-powderbroker]

Here's something - maybe he doesn't want to be a doctor.

I can respect that while being envious of the fact that ER docs have the best schedule I’ve ever heard of.

[RootSkier]

I've heard this a LOT from people who never went all in and finished law school/med school passed the bar/completed their residency.. I've never heard it once from the dozens of people family and friends who did it. Most of them did end up taking 5+ years to fully pay off the student loans.

So, I'll take the word of people I know who DID that over that of some outsider or observer's view. Anyone out there practicing law or medicine right now that would drop out and flip burgers or pound shingles instead knowing what they know now??

I'll wait..

Currently practicing law and at least for today, I'd rather be jacking off horses.

My brother in law is an ER doc and his schedule absolutely fucking rules. But he also has 5X the student debt I ever had. I guess at some point he'll far surpass me in yearly earnings but (a) it will take awhile and (b) his wife is a hor$e per$on.

[EWG]

If I knew what I did now when I went to college it wouldn't have been near as much fun.

/endthread.

Great post.

[Danno]

The discussion of law and lawyers is funny; everyone wants to generalize, and everyone's generalizations are valid. There are lots of people who hated law school, hate practicing, quit practicing, loved law school, love practicing, are making bank, are drowning in debt, etc etc etc.

I am in the camp of I loved law school, and I like my job as far as jobs go. Yes it's tedious at times, but I don't have to find clients, they don't have to pay me, they can't fire me, and I like working with them. Some opposing counsel are jerks, but most are ok, and my practice isn't constant litigation anyway, so things are more transactional and collaborative most of the time. My practice area is very unique, and intellectually stimulating (when it's not crushingly boring), but my experience isn't unique. I make ok money, nothing to write home about but under normal circumstances it's enough.

Here's the advice I would give anyone considering law school. Think long and hard about two things:

First, really look into what the practice of law is actually like (ask a lot of them here, that's a start). Before law school, I had no fucking clue that many law jobs are professional writing/editing jobs, of the (generally) really boring variety. I now consider myself a professional writer (among other things), but I had no idea that was what I was signing up for. Turns out I'm a good writer and like it more than I would have guessed, but a little advance warning would have been useful. Not all law jobs are writing jobs so it doesn't mean law isn't for you if you hate writing, but do your research. But every type of law job has specialized skills/duties, and you are better off if you know ahead of time that you're ok with them.

Second, and more importantly, do the math, figure out approximately how much debt you will incur, what the average salary might be, how much of that will be going to service the debt, etc. Most people have no clue. They go to the best school they can get into, they hear stories of Big Law associates getting 6 figures right out of school, and figure the debt won't be a problem, especially because they got into Good School. Bullshit. It's the crushing debt more than anything that makes lawyers miserable, either because they have to take jobs that they hate to make the payments, or feel trapped in a profession that they now find they don't like but have to continue because of the debt, or they quit the profession and are very bitter about crushing debt payments for a useless degree. Find the cheap schools, find the schools a bit below your "top" choices that have scholarship money to offer, and Do. The. Math.

Before I applied to schools, I met a guy who had gone to VT Law School and tried to swear me off of law school because he wasn't working as a lawyer and was paying $850/mo just in interest. He didn't succeed re my path, but he opened my eyes. Because of him, I didn't apply to only the "best" schools, but also a cut below, and I had 3 full ride offers (none of which I accepted, lol). But I did accept an offer at a school that (at the time) was very affordable. And I graduated with a very affordable debt load, one that allowed me to look at and take the jobs I wanted, not the ones I needed to pay off my debt. IMHO, almost everyone going to law school is WAY better off paying attention to the debt issue vs just trying to get into the highest numbered school in the rankings.

[riser4]

Didn't you go to VT Law?

[Danno]

Didn't you go to VT Law?

Hell no. Way too expensive, not much scholarship money, and way too full of itself (for a 3rd tier school, it's application was ridiculously unique and annoying).

I applied to law school while living in VT -- on hiatus from CO -- but came back to CO for law school (CU).

[riser4]

Hell no.

I applied to law school while living in VT -- on hiatus from CO -- but came back to CO for law school (CU).

Ah. Ok. I remembered that you had been in VT, just didn't get it in the right place in the timeline.

[SumJongGuy]

So should syf stick with it or drop out? Anybody advocating for him to just say fuck it because a few of you didn't enjoy your day jobs? I have no doubt that my 10 year gap trying to be a rock star between undergrad and grad school cost me close to a million dollars I likely would have earned if I smashed my nose to the grindstone the way other people my age did at that point in their careers. It was fun. I don't really regret it but I am definitely glad I gave up on it and went back to school.

[dan_pdx]

So should syf stick with it or drop out? Anybody advocating for him to just say fuck it because a few of you didn't enjoy your day jobs? I have no doubt that my 10 year gap trying to be a rock star between undergrad and grad school cost me close to a million dollars I likely would have earned if I smashed my nose to the grindstone the way other people my age did at that point in their careers. It was fun. I don't really regret it but I am definitely glad I gave up on it and went back to school.

Don't worry, you'll always be a rock star to us.

[RootSkier]

I was an English Lit major too and I put that fucking degree to use building shit for 10 years before I realized I didn't want to turn into fastfred.

[half-fast]

A friend is an ER doc. His first gig after residency offered to pay off a large chunk of his debt.

[Danno]

I was an English Lit major too and I put that fucking degree to use building shit for 10 years before I realized I didn't want to turn into fastfred.

so instead you turned into Dan Samas.

[Mazderati]

Was jacking off horses in Dan Samas's repertoire?

[riser4]

I was an English Lit major too and I put that fucking degree to use building shit for 10 years before I realized I didn't want to turn into fastfred.

Ya, but fred is a legend.

[El Chupacabra]

Was jacking off horses in Dan Samas's repertoire?

"In trouble with the law? We'll get you off!"