Building permits?

[fastfred]

couple years ago someone added a second bath to a condo sold the condo listed as a 2 bed + loft 2 bath
the assessors report listed the unit as a 2 bed + loft 1 bath
the assessors report is the only thing that matters
the buyer unaware of what they really purchased found out the hard way
I was hired to "fix" the problem the plumbing was not even close
the job was around 20k the owner sued the realtor and the title company to cover what I charged them they ended up paying
the tap fees were paid for by the hoa because of the way the place was developed and the hoa is billed for sewer and water

[mall walker]

Yeah I mean, we would obviously disclose the unpermitted work (if it is unpermitted, which I'll probably be curious enough to find out) if we sold as-is, I don't want to put myself in the position to get sued. If someone else wants to own this as their problem at no significant financial penalty to me I can live with that.

We're buying in a different market in which we are a bit overweight, so I'm not as worried about the buy side.

[altasnob]

Just because a permit isn't in the city's slick look up online permit search doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Permits are public records and have to be kept forever. So the city has all the permits for all structures forever. If it's not online, you may just have to do a public records request for the old permits, which could take 6+ months to receive (doesn't sound like this is your problem, just pointing this out).

I was under the impression contractors have to pull permits regardless of whether this is in writing with the customer? You mean fast fred can do shoddy, dangerous, unpermitted work and is ok so long as the homeowner signs off on the crime?

[altasnob]

But if you say there was no unpermitted work in your disclosure and it’s obvious there was, the buyer can use it to get out of the deal.

no unpermitted work that I am aware of in your disclosure and you are A ok. Same bullshit with lead paint disclosure. Nearly 100% of houses built before 1940 have lead paint but homeowners keep saying I am not aware of any lead paint in the home. It's a stupid system that encourages ignorance.

[old_newguy]

no unpermitted work that I am aware of in your disclosure and you are A ok. Same bullshit with lead paint disclosure. Nearly 100% of houses built before 1940 have lead paint but homeowners keep saying I am not aware of any lead paint in the home. It's a stupid system that encourages ignorance.

Is either party willing to fight it out? Maybe who blinks first.

It’s not like there aren’t a handful of other ways to back out at that point anyways.

[Timberridge]

Were any wax rings removed and replaced?

This is usually where people get tripped up on unpermitted bathroom work.

You mean fast fred can do shoddy, dangerous, unpermitted work and is ok so long as the homeowner signs off on the crime?

Wtf? Fastfred is a master craftsman. Complain about his prices but quality work at mtn resorts doesn't come cheap.

[MultiVerse]

Alright. Yeah I checked the SLC citizen portal but it can’t find anything done as far back as 1977, so I’m assuming the search is just poorly implemented.

The SL county search function is without a doubt poorly implemented. My own experience was all the intuitive searches failed but when messing around with the coordinates option to find a house, it worked.

[fastfred]

asbestos is a good one too no disclosure there till I show up and tell em it'll cost 10k to do demo and they are shocked and then freaked cause I told them they have asbestos most people think I'm lying

I just helped someone navigate an unpermitted basement remodel it went smoothly just need to smile be polite let gov't workers say all kinds of shit and threaten you provide all the right paper work never argue it is not the end of the world by any means after poking my eyes out for an hour with a lawyer yesterday I got the best advice always go in with a plan and ask them they would like you to do and how we can make this work out for both of us but having a plan and having something to offer them (not drugs or alcohol or cash) some sort of good will that will make them look like a hero

seriously mall walker get this cleaned up before you list the house don't sell or disclose shit it's not the end of the world

[old goat]

if you didn't have a permit i'd guess there is going to be some hokey shit going on with turds floating up hill someday

Is that figuratively or literally? If literally it probably would be worth ripping out the bathroom and starting over.

I did some work without a permit. Got handed in by somebody that I guess doesn't like me very much, still don't know who. All they did was inspect it to make sure I was up to code, pay the permit fee and I was done. Not a big deal.

That's the way it seems to work around here. The town is interested in the permit fees and not whether you live or die*. I would assume it would depend on where you live, what the work was, whether the building official got laid that morning. I've also noticed that inspectors care who did the work. I've had inspections where they asked who the sub was and signed off the work without looking at it.


OP--I'm not clear. When you researched online, did you find your house? If so, it sounds like you're saying there's no record for any permits for it? How about when it was built, or was it built pre '77.
Were there blueprints for the work? Signed off by an engineer and/or architect? Do you have a copy? Does it look like there's a stamp from the city on them?

Records can be incomplete. When Truckee brought in natural gas the gas company hired a local sub to run the lines to individual houses. All permitted and inspected. A couple of years later the town checks their records and sends everyone a letter saying the work was never finaled and you have to call the sub to put a test on the line and get it finaled and btw because the permit is expired, pay another permit fee. The sub was put out of business since the homeowners all sued them for not getting the inspections. All except us--there sometimes is a virtue in having a wife who never throws anything out and we had the signed inspection card. We told the town, the sub, and everyone we knew who got the letter that the town was wrong, inspections had been done, but the town wouldn't back down. SW Gas told the town they would never hook up to a house that hadn't been inspected. That made no difference to the town either.


*Plumber puts a test device on a new gas line and pumps up the pressure. The line isn't inspected for a couple of weeks while other work is done. Inspector sees that the pressure has dropped. He tells me to pump it back up to whatever number, if it hasn't dropped in 30 minutes it's good, if it drops call the plumber. Signs the inspection tag on the line and leaves. I guess he figured if the homeowner doesn't care if the house blows up why should he.

[::: :::]

the accela online system is not easy to use & thus may not allow someone to find their stuff
it also may only have permits that were submitted under the online application process as it's only been in place a year or two
it may or may not be there

[Ted Striker]

I did some work without a permit. Got handed in by somebody that I guess doesn't like me very much, still don't know who. All they did was inspect it to make sure I was up to code, pay the permit fee and I was done. Not a big deal.

That's the way it seems to work around here. The town is interested in the permit fees and not whether you live or die*. I would assume it would depend on where you live, what the work was, whether the building official got laid that morning. I've also noticed that inspectors care who did the work. I've had inspections where they asked who the sub was and signed off the work without looking at it.

My observation is that when it's an honest mistake or oversight, they'll generally just make you retroactively buy the permit, but when it's intentional non-compliance some jurisdictions will charge up to 150% of what the permit would have cost.

That said, if it were just a remodel of an existing bathroom, I'd let it ride. But adding a new bathroom un-permitted would be a tough one to explain away.

[mall walker]

the accela online system is not easy to use & thus may not allow someone to find their stuff
it also may only have permits that were submitted under the online application process as it's only been in place a year or two
it may or may not be there

yeah I only find a handful of permits for my entire street for the last 50 years so I’m guessing the system is kinda suboptimal

[old goat]

Just because a permit isn't in the city's slick look up online permit search doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Permits are public records and have to be kept forever. So the city has all the permits for all structures forever. If it's not online, you may just have to do a public records request for the old permits, which could take 6+ months to receive (doesn't sound like this is your problem, just pointing this out).

I was under the impression contractors have to pull permits regardless of whether this is in writing with the customer? You mean fast fred can do shoddy, dangerous, unpermitted work and is ok so long as the homeowner signs off on the crime?

the accela online system is not easy to use & thus may not allow someone to find their stuff
it also may only have permits that were submitted under the online application process as it's only been in place a year or two
it may or may not be there

My wife has done a lot of research on permits, building records, development etc going back to 1923. She spent hours in Nevada City going through old records but never had to file a public records request--she just showed up. The people who worked there were glad for the company. You might be able to just show up and ask to see whatever records they have on your house. Or SLC could be different. Just looking through the records of the house shouldn't trigger any action on the part of the city I wouldn't think--most likely you would be dealing with a records clerk, not a building official.

[altasnob]

My wife is an land use attorney for a county. She's the person you deal with if you continuously blow off the building department. Today, she's in the process of shutting down a wedding venue during peak wedding season because the owners repeatedly refused to get the proper permits (think of the lawsuits that will pour in against the owner after this is done). So it can be a really big deal depending on what permit we're talking about.

[Danno]

I was under the impression contractors have to pull permits regardless of whether this is in writing with the customer? You mean fast fred can do shoddy, dangerous, unpermitted work and is ok so long as the homeowner signs off on the crime?

In the remodel thread there is a lot of discussion (early on) about permits. When I had the 2 remodels done on my house (bathrooms then kitchen), both times the licensed contractor explicitly asked if I wanted to do with or without permits. It's a pretty common ask, IME. In the case of the bathrooms, I pulled the permit as the homeowner/GC, which allowed our licensed contractor to (surreptitiously?) do the plumbing and electrical work. In the kitchen remodel, I had the contractor pull the permit and do all of the work, which meant a plumber sub and an electrician sub.

But in answer to your question, licensed contractors do unpermitted work all. the. time.

[XXX-er]

I tend to wonder how much of what fred said/ sez is hyperbole however gentle, there is a back story to everything

[Danno]

no unpermitted work that I am aware of in your disclosure and you are A ok. Same bullshit with lead paint disclosure. Nearly 100% of houses built before 1940 have lead paint but homeowners keep saying I am not aware of any lead paint in the home. It's a stupid system that encourages ignorance.

that may be accurate advice for the disclosure, but that isn't what he should do. Because the assessor's records won't have the info updated if unpermitted, and he's risking the sale blowing up when the buyer asks for proof of the permitting. And a buyer with a good agent will ask (not all will, so he's rolling the dice that he gets a buyer with a bad agent). And then the sale blows up AND he has to correct his disclosure for any future listings.

[Timberridge]

But in answer to your question, licensed contractors do unpermitted work all. the. time.

They become un-licensed. really quick. in my area.

[climberevan]

so like you never had a conversation with the contractaor about permits when you signed up for this project? I don't like pulling permits and never do so I like explain that to the customer and it's even in writing and shit

if you didn't have a permit i'd guess there is going to be some hokey shit going on with turds floating up hill someday
?

Indeed. How did that conversation not happen? On the rare occasion that I do work that should be permitted without one I make people sign a contract that explicitly says that the work requires a permit and that the client is 100% responsible for the consequences of not getting one. (And I only ever do that for established clients who are cool, and whose neighbors are known to not be busybodies who might rat them out.)

If a permit was pulled you should have received a final inspection sign off card from the contractor. If he can't provide that you can be sure he never pulled the permit.

If your contractor did the work properly and up to code it should be fine. Inspection in and of itself certainly doesn't guarantee quality work. Some inspectors will still basically do the inspection from the truck if they know the contractor. I bet Fred gets his cards signed off while he and the inspectors are doing bong rips in the back of his Sprinter.

I know of several people who have sold places with unpermitted bathrooms without problems, but I think every jurisdiction is different. I agree that the worst case scenario is that you'll have to open up some walls and maybe the floor so they can look at the plumbing and electrical. Pay the fine and move on if you're that worried about it.

[Danno]

They become un-licensed. really quick. in my area.

Maybe so. All I know is that both GCs who did work for us asked if we wanted it permitted (we did). And the HVAC guy was going to install the central air without a permit until we asked about it.

I'm just a dentist and have no experience with this except for the jobs in my own house.

[Falcon3]

Think like an attorney on this disclosure issue.

Does my house have asbestos and lead paint? Well it was built in 1948 so you’re damn right it does. But do I KNOW that for a fact? Nope, never had any material tested, so I can’t positively attest that it does.

Same goes for your possibly unpermitted work. Do you know the contractors didn’t pull a permit? Nope, you’ve said so yourself. So you put NO on the disclosure form because you can’t positively attest you know there was work done without a permit. Maybe there was maybe there wasn’t.

[XXX-er]

its ^^ different once you know

or once people know that you know

[Ted Striker]

There's a third box for unknown (at least in this state)

[XXX-er]

There's a third box for unknown (at least in this state)

would that be a known unknown ?

seems very Rumsfeldesque

[fastfred]

I have to look up hyperbole I'll get back to you

Remodeling a bath and adding a bath are two very very different things adding a bath or livable sq footage is a big deal swapping a tub for a shower new shitter and vanity not a big deal

Climver Evan nailed it had a 45 minute rebar inspection two weeks ago it mostly focused on sprinters the whole time and he forgot to sign my card

I deal w pretty intense shit all day long big people w big money I'm hear to let some steam off

here is scummit county when people are up shit creek I'm on the short list of people they are told to call to solve their problems because I have the know how to navigate the bullshit with ease and patience but all that comes w a price tag that most people balk at I have a lawyer and it is very useful because my clients do not like to be said no to so I help them get the yes


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