Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465

    Dyanfit Rotation vs G3 Zed?

    Anyone have time on both and want to share your thoughts?

    I have a pair of radical 2.0 (same as rotation) that I could put on my new touring sticks and trying to decide if it's worth the money to upgrade to the zed to save ~350g per ski.

    My hunch is that the rotation may actually ski better given that the toe piece allows some elastic travel in the horizontal direction... but would love to heat from someone who has tried both.

    Need to make a concrete decision before next season as the holes overlap between these two bindings so changing bindings later would mess with my mount point.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    SLC, Utah
    Posts
    2,390
    are those your only choices? zed's have a notoriously unreliable heel, and rotations are a classic "Jack of all trades, master of none". if you already own both bindings, that's one thing..but if you're buying new, there are definitely other options I would look at.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    12,708
    g3 =
    generally 3 better options at the same feature/pricepoint
    eh
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    SLC, Utah
    Posts
    2,390
    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    g3 =
    generally 3 better options at the same feature/pricepoint
    eh
    x100, this

    and dynafiddles were cool 10 years ago, but are pretty thoroughly outdated at this point IMO

    vipecs = same weight, same ski ability, safer
    tectons = slightly heavier, ski better, safer
    atk fr 12/14= lighter, ski better

    tons of other options, literally, just about anything other than those two bindings




    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Well what the Zed has going for it are...

    Light
    Good ramp angle
    Cheaper than tecton/atk/etc (at least near me)
    Elastic travel

    I already have the dyanfits and I'll use them happily)... but if I replace them it won't be with expensive tectons that don't save me weight. Atk looks awesome but don't want to spend that. Was looking at the alpinist but the lack of a high enough climbing riser is a deal breaker for where I tour.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    are those your only choices? zed's have a notoriously unreliable heel, and rotations are a classic "Jack of all trades, master of none". if you already own both bindings, that's one thing..but if you're buying new, there are definitely other options I would look at.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    Also the zed heel has apparently been updated to address the breakage issues, but I would still use spacer to make this less likely to be an issue.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    My hunch is that the rotation may actually ski better given that the toe piece allows some elastic travel in the horizontal direction...
    The rotation feature provides no more meaingful elasticity in the front than any other tech binding. The swivel bit - as it it is locked on a axis - provides a solution to Dynafits of yesteryear being notorious pre-releasing prone during heavier use. I do not mean to rag on your existing binding, but I simply do not get why people buy these - at this weight you can get Vipecs (that skis better) or go for a much lighter design that skis just as well (say ATK Raider12s.)

    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    x100, this

    and dynafiddles were cool 10 years ago, but are pretty thoroughly outdated at this point IMO

    vipecs = same weight, same ski ability, safer
    tectons = slightly heavier, ski better, safer
    atk fr 12/14= lighter, ski better
    Vipecs and Tectons toes are smoother than any traditional tech toe due to front elasticity - something all other tech toes does not have to any meaningful degree. Both skis better - as in smoother and more consistent power transfer on harder surfaces - than ATKs.

    However, if you do not mind the tech toe feel and will primarily use them in soft snow then you might as well go with a 350gr binding or less - like various ATKs and MTNs.

    I do not get people who use Ions or Kingpins as Vipecs and Tectons are just objectively better bindings in that segment, and if you want Ions then you might as well go for something like ATK Raider12s - bindings that skis just as well or better at a significantly lower weight while being bomb proof to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    but if I replace them it won't be with expensive tectons that don't save me weight.
    The reason to get Tectons would be to improve the ride feel through added power transfer and elasticity, as well as improved safety. So a good option for 50/50 type setups or if you go up to bomb down, but more binding than you really need for most backcountry mission imho. If that is not what you are wanting to optimize for then I 100% agree with you that a 300gr type binding is the best compromise. I hate the tech toe feel so I opt for Vipecs for my dedicated touring skis - the added smoothness is worth the extra 200gr for me. It is not like a run uphill either, so the extra weight is fine by me as it improves my experience by a lot.

    I would look for a deal on ATK C-Raiders for the use you describe. Same ramp angle and heel piece as Moment's hyped Voyager 14, just at a lower price.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    ^^^ i don't feel like you are ragging on my binding choice and appreciate the input. I get the limitations of the dyanfits but wondered if the Rotation toe actually had a performance benefit. Maybe it doesn't. If that's the case going to the Zed at half the Weight but similar performance might work for me.

    The reasons I bout the dyanfits are still valid today and recognize its not the best binding but it works for me.

    Where and how I tour there is no real benefit to the higher performance of a tecton and don't want to pay for performance I don't need. Also the Wright penalty.

    If I could find some ATKs on the cheap I would consider it and will keep an eye on that... but I find their product line a bit bewildering... and haven't found any deals I would be willing to bite at. I'm not budgeting $700 USD for these... maybe half that.

    The salomon MTN also seems to fit the bill pretty closely but I'd want to shim the toe and they use a U spring instead of individual pins on the heel... and a little more speedy... otherwise good.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Grandma's Basement
    Posts
    410
    Kid-Kapow nailed it

    Great summary!
    "Poop is funny" - Frank Reynolds

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    SLC, Utah
    Posts
    2,390
    Quote Originally Posted by rfconroy View Post
    Kid-Kapow nailed it

    Great summary!
    Yep I agree 100%

    And OP, you can often find cheap ATK from telemark-pyrenees or other places. The official ATK binding thread has great beta on models and how they differ, but I agree with the general recommendation to look at a C-Raider or similar.

    I understand the price thing, but in my experience ATK holds up decently well. A $400 binding that gets you 100 days of skiing is still more expensive in the long run than a $600 binding that gets you 200 days.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    Yep I agree 100%

    And OP, you can often find cheap ATK from telemark-pyrenees or other places. The official ATK binding thread has great beta on models and how they differ, but I agree with the general recommendation to look at a C-Raider or similar.

    I understand the price thing, but in my experience ATK holds up decently well. A $400 binding that gets you 100 days of skiing is still more expensive in the long run than a $600 binding that gets you 200 days.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    Right on. I'll dig into that thread a little deeper. Thanks all for your input.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Donner Summit
    Posts
    1,049
    If the primary goal is dropping weight (and not spending too much money) and you don't need a brake (or high risers), you can keep the Dynafit toes and get race binding heels (ATK, MTN, Plum, etc.). Also helps with reducing ramp angle. skimo.com sells toes and heels separately.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    If the primary goal is dropping weight (and not spending too much money) and you don't need a brake (or high risers), you can keep the Dynafit toes and get race binding heels (ATK, MTN, Plum, etc.). Also helps with reducing ramp angle. skimo.com sells toes and heels separately.
    Weight is the primary concern.

    I'll look into that but i often use the high risers on the skin tracks around here.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    I get the limitations of the dyanfits but wondered if the Rotation toe actually had a performance benefit
    oh, but they do, at least compared to older Dynafits -> you do not pre-release Increased functional elasticity, probably pretty negliable.

    The issue with describing it as performance benefit though is that pre-releasing is not much a problem with the current crop of tech bindings. So bindings like Rotations and Ions are functionally more or less the same binding is a ATK Raider12 (same types of features), just at nearly twice the weight.

    So that leaves you with the choice of going for added function at that weight - Vipec/Tecton - or optimizing for weight - ATKs or similar bindings.

    Kingpins, Ions and Dynafits have a strong brand name all, but again, they have a pretty weird position in the market imho. I am not going to call them obsolete, they are not, but for 2022 there are just much better options out there imho.

    If it is a setup that you are going to ski for years and years then saving up difference to get the more refined product is arguably the better option, if it is a possibility.

    And yes, the ATK line up is... crowded. The ATK thread describes the various products well though, as does Freerides interviews with Davide at ATK (linked to in the thread). ATK Raider12s and FR14s are just about as good as a hard charging tech binding can be imho - they are truly excellent bindings. I would have gone with the aforementioned C-Raiders as they are bit cheaper, lighter, have the same features and V14 ramp angle.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Just started reading the atk thread and I dont see c raiders? Various other flavors of raider but don't see c raiders specifically.

    Also it seems like a lot of those atk bindings have about 10 or 11mm of delta. I'd be shimming the toe based on that. Not a deal breaker but not ideal.

    Also the cheapest atk I see for sale right now is the crest and its still almost $200 cdn more than the zed.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    oh, but they do, at least compared to older Dynafits -> you do not pre-release Increased functional elasticity, probably pretty negliable.

    The issue with describing it as performance benefit though is that pre-releasing is not much a problem with the current crop of tech bindings. So bindings like Rotations and Ions are functionally more or less the same binding is a ATK Raider12 (same types of features), just at nearly twice the weight.

    So that leaves you with the choice of going for added function at that weight - Vipec/Tecton - or optimizing for weight - ATKs or similar bindings.

    Kingpins, Ions and Dynafits have a strong brand name all, but again, they have a pretty weird position in the market imho. I am not going to call them obsolete, they are not, but for 2022 there are just much better options out there imho.

    If it is a setup that you are going to ski for years and years then saving up difference to get the more refined product is arguably the better option, if it is a possibility.

    And yes, the ATK line up is... crowded. The ATK thread describes the various products well though, as does Freerides interviews with Davide at ATK (linked to in the thread). ATK Raider12s and FR14s are just about as good as a hard charging tech binding can be imho - they are truly excellent bindings. I would have gone with the aforementioned C-Raiders as they are bit cheaper, lighter, have the same features and V14 ramp angle.
    FWIW I actually have never pre released from a dynafit binding. I know that's rare and maybe based on how I ski in the backcountry? All I know is I've never had any of the common issues.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    235
    I have Rotations and Zeds and have skied them for the past two seasons. The brakes on the Rotations have broken twice, the repair of which requires removing the binding and then remounting in the same holes. Not necessarily possible on every ski. Also had major brake breakage issues on the Zeds the first season, but that is now solved. They ski the same IMO. No pre-release issues on either of them. The Zeds are way easier to step into, due to the non-rotation and snappy springs. I'd buy Zeds again if they were the cheapest option.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by Wapow View Post
    I have Rotations and Zeds and have skied them for the past two seasons. The brakes on the Rotations have broken twice, the repair of which requires removing the binding and then remounting in the same holes. Not necessarily possible on every ski. Also had major brake breakage issues on the Zeds the first season, but that is now solved. They ski the same IMO. No pre-release issues on either of them. The Zeds are way easier to step into, due to the non-rotation and snappy springs. I'd buy Zeds again if they were the cheapest option.
    Appreciate the beta from someone who has used both... thanks!

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,365
    Fritschi Xenic?
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

    www.theguideshut.ca

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by waxman View Post
    Fritschi Xenic?
    Yeah also possible but I would be shimming. Again... not a deal breaker.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,365
    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    Yeah also possible but I would be shimming. Again... not a deal breaker.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    I missed or can't find the shimming requirement, I sell all 3 at retail plus some others. Just on breakage/warranty/parts/support alone that's my recommendation.
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

    www.theguideshut.ca

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    Quote Originally Posted by waxman View Post
    I missed or can't find the shimming requirement, I sell all 3 at retail plus some others. Just on breakage/warranty/parts/support alone that's my recommendation.
    The pin delta on that binding is +14.5mm of the heel relative to the toe. The rotation is +13mm and I put a 5mm shim under the toe to get a more neutral ramp that more closely matches my downhill setups. The zed is +4mm. Tecton +10mm.

    A little Google searching tells me the xenic has only 2 risers and the "high" is relatively low at 39mm. Remove 5mm from me making a toe shim and I don't think that will cut it for me on the skin tracks I often see.

    Zed risers are 0mm, 53mm and 74mm. I don't use the high risers on my dyanfits much but I'm glad I have them in occasion.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    Just started reading the atk thread and I dont see c raiders? Various other flavors of raider but don't see c raiders specifically.
    It was released last year as a more affordable Raider-version, but I have yet to see any feedback on them. The heels are the same, as are the principles used in the toe - the difference is the material. The delta is not mentioned, and I found it through measuring their Candy 5 kids binding that uses the same toe, if probably with softer springs.

    you could PM Spyderjon and/or waxman and see what prices they can give you, or any of the euro sites that ship across the pond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    FWIW I actually have never pre released from a dynafit binding. I know that's rare and maybe based on how I ski in the backcountry? All I know is I've never had any of the common issues.
    I think it is more of a historical issue with Radicals and earlier designs. That being said, they have added complexity to the design to help mitigate it as an issue - something they would not have done if it was not an issue - after all, weight trumps all for most people when getting a touring setup. No other traditional tech toe like ATKs or MTNs have this feature, perhaps indicating that it has never been much of a problem for them.

    I am sure Zeds will be fine too if you can get them at good price. I remember there being some less than stellar feedbacks in the Zed thread and thread, but one would think that G3 have fixed the initial issues by now.

    And to be perfectly honest, I skin up to bomb down, so you are perhaps better served with taking advice from the gram counting crowd. I did most of my tours with Lange XT3 130s last season, in spite of being a smaller dude, so it is more of a "what can I tolerate on the way up, to ski like I want to going down" equation for me.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    4,465
    ^^^ appreciate the input... thanks!

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    4,414
    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    The rotation feature provides no more meaingful elasticity in the front than any other tech binding. The swivel bit - as it it is locked on a axis - provides a solution to Dynafits of yesteryear being notorious pre-releasing prone during heavier use.
    The rotation feature doesn't even do that. It provides an "outlet" for lateral elasticity, but in decades of Dynafit use I never pre-released in the lateral plane, only upward at the heel. If you like 13mm of ramp, there's nothing wrong with using your Dynafits again; after about a day on the MTN @ 8.5mm, I decided I skied better there.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •