Works angleset - does 1mm matter in terms of head tube length

[TheK12]

Looking at getting a 1 deg angleset for my Process 111 and with supply chain issues being what they are, not able to find the "proper" HTL length model. I am able to find the model for 110-119mm HTL but my XL Process has a 120mm HTL. Would 1mm make a difference in terms of function? I'm going to assume that it'll affect the resulting HTA but wondering if there would be any mechanical issues. Emailed Works but haven't heard back and can't seem to find a definitive answer in all the usual interweb places.

[grinch]

Its the race that gets angled. The races have a range of angle theyll accept. Once its angled to far it will bind. Not sure if that extra 1mm will make it bind but 10mm range is asking a lot for it already. Im guessing the 1mm will make the headset bind when the wheel/bars turn.
I wonder if these guys have something?
https://www.superstarcomponents.com/...le-headset.htm

Ive no experience with superstar. Ive had a few works components headsets with no problem. Sometimes there is a good selection of works headsets on pinkbike buy n sell

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[TheK12]

^^^ Thanks for the info! The mechanical binding is what I'd be worried be worried about. And yep, checking Pinkbike for inventory but so far, only finding the 110-119mm HTL model.

[D(C)]

I’m not sure whether or not it will bind, but the longer your headtube relative to the stated range, the less angle change you’ll get.

The Wolf Tooth angleset looks pretty slick, if you can find one.

[toast2266]

Just face the headtube down to 119mm.

Kidding. mostly.

[SchralphMacchio]

I’ve owned 2 works anglesets, a -1 ZS/EC and now a -2 EC/EC. Have never used them out of recommended range but I’m struggling to see what grinch is talking about.

After having used both I do prefer EC top and bottom as there is more room for the dust cap to better seal the cartridge; I had an issue with my ZS where the seal would be below the the rim of the rear of the upper cup but above the front of the cup due to the angle change … so moisture got in and eventually seized the upper cartridge … and Works uses annoying cartridge sizes that are next to impossible to get in the US. So if you do buy a Works I highly recommend ordering an extra bearing set up front.

Its the race that gets angled. The races have a range of angle theyll accept. Once its angled to far it will bind.

Are you saying that the cups are milled flat but offset to create the angle? Making the seat interface between the angular contact bearing cartridge normal to the head tube, and not properly angled so that the lower cartridge doesn’t sit flat with the race?
That doesn’t sound right to me but I’ve never inspect the geometry of my angleset cups with my calipers to confirm whether the depth is asymmetric (bearing cartridges aligned with the offset angle) or symmetric (bearing cartridges at 0 degree angle but laterally offset from center to create the new head angle). I have always assumed that the cups are faced foe the proper resulting angle, otherwise the cartridges would knock and get deformed easily unless you had so much preload that the system would be difficult to turn.


But I honestly don’t see the problem.
Do some trigonometry with me for a second; if you have a triangle with one side being 115mm long, the other side needs to be 2mm long to get a 1 degree angle offset. In an angleset this 2mm would be the total offset of both cups off the central axis of the head tube. This 2mm is fixed for the angleset. If you increase the long leg from 115 to 120, but leave the offset at 2mm, you can do the tangent to find that the angle hasn’t really changed all that much between the two triangles.

Personally I would go for it, buying the spare bearing set up front, and going external cup for both top and bottom. If you think about it, by going EC/EC then you are actually starting with the longest head tube length possible, and the extra 1mm outside of the Intended range would represent an even smaller change to the resulting angle.

I bet that the acceptable range of the cups is more than +/- 4.5mm, and the only reason they are sold that way is because it is easier from a product marketing perspective I give you set ranges of which product to buy than to market them with overlap - think about how many e mails they would get saying “should I buy this cup or this cup?” - when the answer is “the difference is practically negligible.”

[bagtagley]

Email them, they’re responsive and helpful. If it won’t work they’ll suggest an alternative or make one that will.

[grinch]

I’ve owned 2 works anglesets, a -1 ZS/EC and now a -2 EC/EC. Have never used them out of recommended range but I’m struggling to see what grinch is talking about.

After having used both I do prefer EC top and bottom as there is more room for the dust cap to better seal the cartridge; I had an issue with my ZS where the seal would be below the the rim of the rear of the upper cup but above the front of the cup due to the angle change … so moisture got in and eventually seized the upper cartridge … and Works uses annoying cartridge sizes that are next to impossible to get in the US. So if you do buy a Works I highly recommend ordering an extra bearing set up front.



Are you saying that the cups are milled flat but offset to create the angle? Making the seat interface between the angular contact bearing cartridge normal to the head tube, and not properly angled so that the lower cartridge doesn’t sit flat with the race?
That doesn’t sound right to me but I’ve never inspect the geometry of my angleset cups with my calipers to confirm whether the depth is asymmetric (bearing cartridges aligned with the offset angle) or symmetric (bearing cartridges at 0 degree angle but laterally offset from center to create the new head angle). I have always assumed that the cups are faced foe the proper resulting angle, otherwise the cartridges would knock and get deformed easily unless you had so much preload that the system would be difficult to turn.


But I honestly don’t see the problem.
Do some trigonometry with me for a second; if you have a triangle with one side being 115mm long, the other side needs to be 2mm long to get a 1 degree angle offset. In an angleset this 2mm would be the total offset of both cups off the central axis of the head tube. This 2mm is fixed for the angleset. If you increase the long leg from 115 to 120, but leave the offset at 2mm, you can do the tangent to find that the angle hasn’t really changed all that much between the two triangles.

Personally I would go for it, buying the spare bearing set up front, and going external cup for both top and bottom. If you think about it, by going EC/EC then you are actually starting with the longest head tube length possible, and the extra 1mm outside of the Intended range would represent an even smaller change to the resulting angle.

I bet that the acceptable range of the cups is more than +/- 4.5mm, and the only reason they are sold that way is because it is easier from a product marketing perspective I give you set ranges of which product to buy than to market them with overlap - think about how many e mails they would get saying “should I buy this cup or this cup?” - when the answer is “the difference is practically negligible.”

I have a -1 degree works hs currently. The bottom bearing cup is offset and the top cup still has the bearing in the center of the cup(cant remember but im guessing a -1.5 or -2 would have both bearings offset to get the extra angle). As such, with my -1, the race accepts a bit of variance to accomodate the 10mm variance in headtube length. There is a bevel on the race znd a bevel on the lowrr cup bearing that allow a slight adjust, for the 10mm variance in ht length. Once its tightened from the star nut and stem it doesnt move. The 2 bevels always sit flush. The bevels just allow it to adapt to whatever ht length you have within that 10mm range.
I tried to add on a reverse components -5 degree race and discovered the difference in the works race. The reverse components race is the same as any race and will fit with most any headset. Its just 10mm thicker so it jacks your frame up 10mm on the steerer tube. It gives you -.5 degree slacker angles and if necessary can help your fork crown clear your downtube, if you crash or do bar spins. Thst reverse component race bound up when combined with the works headset. It was fine until i turned the bars enough. Really headscratcher until jacked the bike in the stand and put a light on it to see the race bind up on the seal

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[Toddball]

I got a -2 degree Works headset that was designed for a 91-98mm headtube and put it in a friend's 120mm headtube. It works fine, although presumably the actual angle reduction is less than 2 degrees. I emailed Works about it and they said it would work correctly and wouldn't bind.

Going the other way, i.e. getting a set designed for a long headtube and putting them in a short headtube, might result in the steer tube rubbing on something it shouldn't.

[SchralphMacchio]

Wow grinch that’s really interesting. Thanks for explaining.

Edit: different headsets use different angular contact chamfers. Probable the other angleset’s race didn’t mesh with the Works one because the chamfer angle was 30 instead of 45 or Vice versa. If you stick a 45 degree chamfered race into a 30 degree chamfered bearing then yeah that could bind at preload.

I’m still pretty sure the cups need to be machined with the new axis angle so that the cartridge sits flat, and that the crown race itself is fully symmetric. If the angles of the crown race and inner bearing race don’t line up then you don’t have load distribution and would damage the bearing cartridge.


Another story … I once got a
cheap chinese-made cartridge stuck in the Works cup, probably because the chamfer angle or OD tolerance was not as precise as advertised. This was sad because a mag who owned Works AS was so kind as to sell me a spare set of ceramic bearings … that I accidentally threw out with some crumpled paper shipping filler when cleaning my bench one day
Hence me suggesting buying spare bearing cartridges in advance!!’

[grinch]

Wow grinch that’s really interesting. Thanks for explaining.

Edit: different headsets use different angular contact chamfers. Probable the other angleset’s race didn’t mesh with the Works one because the chamfer angle was 30 instead of 45 or Vice versa. If you stick a 45 degree chamfered race into a 30 degree chamfered bearing then yeah that could bind at preload.

I’m still pretty sure the cups need to be machined with the new axis angle so that the cartridge sits flat, and that the crown race itself is fully symmetric. If the angles of the crown race and inner bearing race don’t line up then you don’t have load distribution and would damage the bearing cartridge.


Another story … I once got a
cheap chinese-made cartridge stuck in the Works cup, probably because the chamfer angle or OD tolerance was not as precise as advertised. This was sad because a mag who owned Works AS was so kind as to sell me a spare set of ceramic bearings … that I accidentally threw out with some crumpled paper shipping filler when cleaning my bench one day
Hence me suggesting buying spare bearing cartridges in advance!!’

Its just that the bevel on the works race and the bevel on the lower cup bearing is a wider bevel than it would need to be on a typical race/lower bearing straight headset. They still fit flat together but the wider bevel accomodates the different length head tube

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[TheK12]

Reached out to Works and they said the following - "No problem, the 110-119mm headtube option will work with your 120mm headtube without issue and you should still receive the full degree change wanted."

So looks like i'm good to go! Thanks all for the info!