Tool Time

[EWG]

Is it bad that I think the most impressive part of Gunder's shop is how clean it is?

Possibly. It's also possible that this thread should be titled OCD Time instead of tool time and many of us that post here, myself included, should look in the mirror.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Nice, those look pretty good. These are the 3 sets I own.
Attachment 418963
The Wolftooths live in my riding pack, and they double as tire levers. The Unior's in the middle are my go to these days. They are about 15mm longer than the Park ones and have lower profile nose. Plus they just feel better than the Park's. The Parks have been relegated to my travel bag. The tips are wide enough they dont fit as easily into a 12 speed chain as the Unior's and they are too stiff. Plus its nice having the spring feature on these types of pliers IMOP.

Aha! But my new one is to close the link, not open it.

Is it possible that I now have a tool that you don’t already have multiples of? Also, my Park one technically opens and closes the link, so I have multiple closing tools! (Though the Park one actually sucks for closing the link, which is why I picked up this KMC closer.)

[Gunder]

Is it bad that I think the most impressive part of Gunder's shop is how clean it is?

I normally keep it quite clean and organized, so its easy to find stuff and efficient... however it's a full on shit show at the moment, with the lathe completely torn apart. I just dont have enough space for projects that big so most the work benches are now covered in lathe parts.

Possibly. It's also possible that this thread should be titled OCD Time instead of tool time and many of us that post here, myself included, should look in the mirror.

I'd prefer CDO as thats alphabetical.

Aha! But my new one is to close the link, not open it.

Is it possible that I now have a tool that you don’t already have multiples of? Also, my Park one technically opens and closes the link, so I have multiple closing tools! (Though the Park one actually sucks for closing the link, which is why I picked up this KMC closer.)

You got me there While I may own lots of tools, all of them are ones that either perform a specific task, or enable me to do a job more effectively / efficiently. I just dont see the need for pliers to close the link. I have always just put the links together, grabbed the brake with one hand and pushed the cranks forward. It instantly locks the link in and takes less time than it would be to grab a pair of pliers and fumble with inserting them into the link section.

[J. Barron DeJong]

You got me there While I may own lots of tools, all of them are ones that either prefer a specific task, or enable me to do a job more effectively / efficiently. I just dont see the need for pliers to close the link. I have always just put the links together, grabbed the brake with one hand and pushed the cranks forward. It instantly locks the link in and takes less time than it would be to grab a pair of pliers and fumble with inserting them into the link section.

Yeah, I’ve always managed fine in the past, but since starting the Queso dip routine I’m messing with links more often, and whether it’s the Queso or the links, they seem more difficult to close recently, so decided to splurge.

[Gunder]

Yeah, I’ve always managed fine in the past, but since starting the Queso dip routine I’m messing with links more often, and whether it’s the Queso or the links, they seem more difficult to close recently, so decided to splurge.

I bet its the wax build up. Wend sent me some of their chain wax a few years ago to try, and found that it was pretty worthless here in the PNW it just gunked up and didnt last. I'm a really big fan of just using Boeshield T9 and buy it by the gallon.

[Sandbox]

Gunder…. That is very impressive. The neatness, organization and cleanliness is so amazing. The sheer amount of tools and knowledge you have is incredible!!!! Well done


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[Gunder]

Gunder…. That is very impressive. The neatness, organization and cleanliness is so amazing. The sheer amount of tools and knowledge you have is incredible!!!! Well done

Thanks!

[J. Barron DeJong]

I bet its the wax build up. Wend sent me some of their chain wax a few years ago to try, and found that it was pretty worthless here in the PNW it just gunked up and didnt last. I'm a really big fan of just using Boeshield T9 and buy it by the gallon.

Don’t want to derail this thread, but Wend Wax is apparently a pretty crappy product, so not shocking that you’d be disappointed:



High quality Queso should be a cleaner and more slippery version of T-9, and I’d think it would have better longevity since it’s all lube no filler. Zero Friction has talked about testing T-9 when they have open time on a test rig, and I’m interested in seeing those results.

[Gunder]

Don’t want to derail this thread, but Wend Wax is apparently a pretty crappy product, so not shocking that you’d be disappointed:



High quality Queso should be a cleaner and more slippery version of T-9, and I’d think it would have better longevity since it’s all lube no filler. Zero Friction has talked about testing T-9 when they have open time on a test rig, and I’m interested in seeing those results.

Wend is a pretty major OEM supplier for most of "wax and lube" companies in skiing, surfing and biking. At the end of the day, I'm not a fan of their products performance whether it's something they brand or that someone else does.

The vast majority of all chain wear is not due to a lack of lubrication, but instead is from contamination. So the best way to increase chain life, like most mechanical things is to keep it clean. I use an ultrasonic cleaner ( use water and dawn in it, Simple Green will strip the anodizing on aluminum parts) to clean my drive train once a month or so (more often this year). My experience with traditional wax lubes is its more difficult to clean off, and more difficult to apply. I would much rather have a cleaner chain that is cleaned and lubed more often to reduce contamination, so thus I like wet lubes.

Wet lubes are also thiner, (even when wax is melted) so they do a better job of penetrating into the relative tight tolerances that make up the chain rollers. (I think you are noticing this with your quick links being more difficult to latch due to wax and containment build up). This same argument works for wet lubes over dry lubes in general. Liquids in general do a better job of penetration than solids. Just think about the difference between ice and water and which one will soak through a garment.

Most bike lube mfg's are just rebranding and relabeling industrial lubricants. A few things to note, I dont like WD40 for a lube. It is actually a Water Displacement formula and not a lubricant. It was designed to be a corrosion inhibitor and not a lubricant. Its used quite often as an industrial cleaner, but more relative to biking, it is commonly used as a CUTTING FLUID for aluminum.

Boeshield T9, was developed by Boeing and I am willing to bet they have done a hell of a lot more testing on what's the best lubricant for aluminum and other metals than any bike lube or website has done. It uses a solvent carrier, so It's thin, enabling it to seep into tight areas, the solvent helps flush gunk out, than evaporates and it dries into a film and doesn't seem to collect as much dirt and grime (contamination) as other lubes (wet or dry), it is easy to clean off and reapply. Since it uses a solvent carrier, each time you reapply it, you are essentially flushing the old stuff out, resulting in a cleaner chain. It is also very commonly used in industry for lubricating industrial machine parts.

[EWG]

Ok all, since we are on the topic, what is Prolink Gold a rebrand of? I'd love to just buy it buy the gallon from the source...

[Eluder]

T-9 is great stuff for the right application but it is dry lube not a wet lube and does have wax in it.

Bike chain lube is funny, I like Dumonde Tech Light personally… but it does stink. In the end I use what ever wet lube is around and keep it clean like Gunner said.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Wend is a pretty major OEM supplier for most of "wax and lube" companies in skiing, surfing and biking. At the end of the day, I'm not a fan of their products performance whether it's something they brand or that someone else does.

The vast majority of all chain wear is not due to a lack of lubrication, but instead is from contamination. So the best way to increase chain life, like most mechanical things is to keep it clean. I use an ultrasonic cleaner ( use water and dawn in it, Simple Green will strip the anodizing on aluminum parts) to clean my drive train once a month or so (more often this year). My experience with traditional wax lubes is its more difficult to clean off, and more difficult to apply. I would much rather have a cleaner chain that is cleaned and lubed more often to reduce contamination, so thus I like wet lubes.

Wet lubes are also thiner, (even when wax is melted) so they do a better job of penetrating into the relative tight tolerances that make up the chain rollers. (I think you are noticing this with your quick links being more difficult to latch due to wax and containment build up). This same argument works for wet lubes over dry lubes in general. Liquids in general do a better job of penetration than solids. Just think about the difference between ice and water and which one will soak through a garment.

Most bike lube mfg's are just rebranding and relabeling industrial lubricants. A few things to note, I dont like WD40 for a lube. It is actually a Water Displacement formula and not a lubricant. It was designed to be a corrosion inhibitor and not a lubricant. Its used quite often as an industrial cleaner, but more relative to biking, it is commonly used as a CUTTING FLUID for aluminum.

Boeshield T9, was developed by Boeing and I am willing to bet they have done a hell of a lot more testing on what's the best lubricant for aluminum and other metals than any bike lube or website has done. It uses a solvent carrier, so It's thin, enabling it to seep into tight areas, the solvent helps flush gunk out, than evaporates and it dries into a film and doesn't seem to collect as much dirt and grime (contamination) as other lubes (wet or dry), it is easy to clean off and reapply. Since it uses a solvent carrier, each time you reapply it, you are essentially flushing the old stuff out, resulting in a cleaner chain. It is also very commonly used in industry for lubricating industrial machine parts.

This is the derailment I was trying to avoid .

- Queso doesn’t seem to have any penetration issues. (At least the commercial formulas anyway.)

- Molten Speed Wax and Silca Super Secret can be cleaned off very effectively by just swishing the chains around in a couple changes of boiled water.

- Queso is very good with contamination since it’s 1) dry and not tacky so it doesn’t attract/hold dust and dirt, and 2) sheds wax particles constantly, carrying out the contamination with them.

I’d have said wet weather might change the calculus a little, but if you’re doing ultrasonic cleaning and everything, not sure how much more effort the queso route would actually be.

Like I said earlier though, I am interested to see how T-9 tests. We stocked it in the shop I worked at back in the day and none of us were fans of it, but we were also all using Pedro’s Syn Lube, which likely sucked much worse than T-9 knowing what I know now.

[climberevan]

This is the derailment I was trying to avoid .

- .

No thread is safe from a chain lube derailment.

Here's a serious question for Gunder and others. How do you maintain such surgery-suite cleanliness in your shop? I can understand if you're only doing machining or bike stuff, but woodworking and metal grinding dust seems to get absolutely everywhere. I know that there are better dust collection and control solutions out there, but I have a pretty good setup (dust collector for stationary tools, Bosch Airsweep Hepa vac for the sanders and track saw, overhead extraction blower, etc), and there is always SOME dust, even if it's just a little from hand sanding. Yesterday I spent about 6 hours in the shop building some custom floating shelves. You know, plane the rough lumber, glue-up, rip miters, glue the boxes, sanding, etc. Where does one find the time to then go around the shop with a tiny vacuum brush attachment to get every speck of dust?

I see these shops on YouTube videos etc where they have open shelves of hand planes or whatever, and they are always spotless--not just no piles of sawdust, but no fine dust on the shelves or on the clamps or anywhere. What's the ratio of cleaning to building stuff? Do they actually build stuff?

[joetron]

A few things to note, I dont like WD40 for a lube. It is actually a Water Displacement formula and not a lubricant. It was designed to be a corrosion inhibitor and not a lubricant. Its used quite often as an industrial cleaner, but more relative to biking, it is commonly used as a CUTTING FLUID for aluminum.

This is some real cutting edge information.
Pun very intended.





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[Gunder]

Ok all, since we are on the topic, what is j a rebrand of? I'd love to just buy it buy the gallon from the source...

I’d start by looking at a copy of the https://progoldmfr.com/wp-content/up...17/10/4026.pdf and seeing what is in it.


For example it’s widely known that Slick Honey / SRAM Butter is just rebranded Slickoleum. I just buy the Slickoleum tubs. It’s way cheaper!

Slickoleum

Calcium 12 Hydroxy Stearate
Mineral Oil

Slick honey

Distillates,
Calcium 12- hydroxy Stearate




Pro link gold


Butane
Aliphatic Hydrocarbons
Hydrotreated Heavy Naphthenic Distillate
Propane
Alkanes, (C=6-18), chloro
Solvent Naphtha (petroleum), light aromatic

Here is Boesheild T9

PETROLEUM DISTILLATE
HYDROTREATED HEAVY PETROLEUM NAPHTHA PETROLEUM OIL
PETROLATUM
SORBITAN TRIOLEATE
OIL SOLUBLE SODIUM SULFONATE

Here is wd40

LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon
Petroleum Base Oil
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon
(Flammable Liquid Category 3 Aspiration Toxicity Category 1 Specific Target Organ Toxicity Single Exposure Category 3 (nervous system effects))
Carbon Dioxide

SiliKroil

Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon
Proprietary Additive
Diisobutyl Ketone
Aliphatic Alcohol #1 Aliphatic Alcohol #2

Kroil

Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon
Proprietary Additive
Diisobutyl Ketone
Aliphatic Alcohol #1 Aliphatic Alcohol #2

[singlesline]

Ok, here's my tool that I bet nobody else has. Homemade, but I'd be surprised if anyone has the real one.



It notched tool for disassembling a Bendix Automatic 2-speed kickback hub (no shifter--shift by pedaling backwards).

Looks like certain freewheel tools, but as far as I know, nothing Park makes fits (it is much smaller).

Use it about once a year to repack the grease in my red-band hub when the braking starts to feel sticky...although I think its days may be numbered as it is getting pretty rusty and I've completely destroyed one of the brass discs in the brake stack.

[Gunder]

Ok, here's my tool that I bet nobody else has. Homemade, but I'd be surprised if anyone has the real one.



It notched tool for disassembling a Bendix Automatic 2-speed kickback hub (no shifter--shift by pedaling backwards).

Looks like certain freewheel tools, but as far as I know, nothing Park makes fits (it is much smaller).
.

Custom spanner wrench. Nice.
I used to use those a lot when I did a lot of camera repair work back in college.
The adjustable set is really nice, its made in Germany, no idea by whom, but it has a bunch of different interchangeable tips from pins to blades. I dont use it every day, but its nice to have as it does a job nothing else will. The smaller ones where made by Pentax specifically for their 6x7 cameras, but they seem to fit a lot of battery doors that use pins.

This is a set of Park Tool pin spanners, I haven't used them in a while, but they used to be pretty commonly needed for rebuilding rear hubs.

These are various pin and notch spanners typically used for bearing retainers on industrial equipment, such as my Bridgeport mill and on the lathe I am rebuilding.


Having the Bridgeport is really nice as it allows me to build custom tools when needed.

The monarch 10EE uses a lot of tappered pins to retain shafts and knobs. You can tap these out with a starter punch an a hammer, but you risk damaging the shafts / parts. So I took an C-clamp and machined it into a portable press for the pins.

It worked really well!

The lathe also requires pin spanners to remove the hand wheels. I didnt want to risk damaging the parts with an adjustable pin spanner, so I took a piece of AL bar and pressed the appropriate size machine dowels into it. The green fluid is retaining compound that ensures the pins dont come loose.

The cross drilled shaft allows me to insert a longer punch, to use as leverage.

They worked really well!

[climberevan]

Gunder with the FATALITY on singlesline's (excellent) custom wrench.

The Clam Clamps I posted are very specialty pieces for on-site high end wood window & door casing miters, and I wouldn't expect even many trim carpenters to have them. I've had mine for a long time and have never met anyone else who has a set. I claim victory in the game, so far.

[singlesline]

Apparently someone on ebay has started machining and selling the Bendix tool

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-Coas...5.c20#viTabs_0

At least I assume they are making them, especially since they don't say NOS. I find it unlikely that they somehow found hundreds of tools (without packaging) when people have been saying the tool is unobtanium for decades. But the seller has a bunch of other NOS bike stuff, so maybe they found a secret stash.

[EWG]

Gunder with the FATALITY on singlesline's (excellent) custom wrench.

The Clam Clamps I posted are very specialty pieces for on-site high end wood window & door casing miters, and I wouldn't expect even many trim carpenters to have them. I've had mine for a long time and have never met anyone else who has a set. I claim victory in the game, so far.

I'm not sure I'm giving you the win. You only get a win if Gunder doesn't have a tool that can complete on site frame mitering as well or better than your clam clamps. That's not yet been addressed.

[Gunder]

I'm not sure I'm giving you the win. You only get a win if Gunder doesn't have a tool that can complete on site frame mitering as well or better than your clam clamps. That's not yet been addressed.

The domino allows you to create a miter joint with a tennon, so no clamping is nescesary, and its a stronger joint, that wont separate like a standard miter.

https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge...ls/accessories

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...uQDvv7wgCtytFE

[climberevan]

I can appreciate the Domino's uselessness, but I've never seen or heard of them being used for casing. The issue isn't alignment--bisquits also take care of that--it's holding the miter super tight until the glue dries. How does it obviate the need for clamping?

The Domino is arguably sometimes a superior tool to a bisquit joiner (especially if one likes to pay a lot for proprietary oblong dowels), but it's not a miter clamp, so I still claim victory, but welcome challenges!

[adrenalated]

Ooh we're to the point where both are telling the other that they're doing it wrong! Grabbing popcorn.

Does the guy with the more expensive tools win or lose in event of a tie?

[EWG]

Does the guy with the more expensive tools win or lose in event of a tie?

Those of us watching win. Pass the popcorn.

[grskier]

I'm not sure I'm giving you the win. You only get a win if Gunder doesn't have a tool that can complete on site frame mitering as well or better than your clam clamps. That's not yet been addressed.

Gunder has the tool to make that tool... so...