Denali rangers calling out a bunch of idiots

[TG]

https://www.nps.gov/dena/blogs/troubling-trends.htm

couple highlights, much more in article

“ Another disturbing trend we are seeing is people attempting the summit from 14,000 feet. While it is totally reasonable to gain 7,000 feet of elevation in a day in Colorado and summit a 14’er, going from 14,000 feet to the summit of Denali is a whole different undertaking. There are very few mountaineers capable of moving fast enough to accomplish this safely. Exhaustion, untested physiological response to high altitude, rapidly changing weather, and insufficient gear on such a long push are all factors we have seen contribute to injuries and deaths for those attempting a summit out of 14 camp. Monday was a very real and sobering reminder of the dangers of this phenomenon.”

….


“ It's also our observation that many teams attempting this long and committing summit push have frequently demonstrated a remarkable lack of contingency plans, and a clear psychological -- if not technical -- dependence on the mere presence of other climbing expeditions and the NPS infrastructure. Would you attempt this strategy if you were entirely alone on this mountain? If not, then you shouldn't be doing it now. The teams that have come to grief attempting this feat have, at best, invariably ended up becoming someone else's responsibility, typically in the form of being fed, watered and crammed into the tents of people previously unknown to them at high camp, because they are too exhausted or sick to complete the descent back to their camp at 14,000 feet. A number of climbing teams have had their own summit bids disrupted or ruined by the need to care for these climbers. And in the worst case, these climbers take injurious or even fatal falls, become incapacitated with high altitude sickness, or develop compromised mobility by frostbite, situations which place the lives of professional rescuers and other responding climbing teams at significant physical risk.”

[jacob_dbu]

Had a friend go on a trip with an AAI guide who quietly admitted to being one of those folks who got HAPE trying to skip the final camp up to the summit...

[Benny Profane]

I'll bet most any NP park rangers can write such a blog entry. I just finished this: https://www.amazon.com/Over-Edge-Dea.../dp/097009731X hoo boy, the things stupid humans do.

[rideit]

Wow, that’s a morbid book. I bet it was riveting.

[Kevo]

I have several friends who have done the 14k to summit in a day push, two of whom skied the Messner and were back to 14k feet an hour after standing on the summit. All of them are significantly above average in cardio capacity.

My buddy and I successfully made it from 14k-17k-summit-17k in a 36 hour push before getting caught in a two day storm at 17k. We'd been back and forth to 16k several times in the days leading up to that push, but were really feeling the altitude while waiting out weather 17k after our summit day.

Having been above 6,000 meters multiple times in the Himalayas, I think what they say about Denali feeling higher is true. 17k feet on Denali felt higher and more laborious than 20k feet in Nepal. It seems like a lot of people under estimate the effects of altitude on Denali (myself included).

[brutah]

The AK range is further from the equator than the Himalayas so there's less barometric pressure to begin with. We knew this before my trip up Denali and the rangers made that very clear when we checked in before flying up to the glacier. Even at 14k camp, you could feel the altitude more than on Colorado 14ers.

I think being a seven summit just attracts an interesting crowd that have more money than experience. It also baffled me the things that came out of guided climbers mouths up there. From a guide freaking out on his client for repeatedly going into the tent with crampons on his feet to some dude asking where all the ice/snow blocks came from that you used to block the wind around your tent.

[Benny Profane]

Wow, that’s a morbid book. I bet it was riveting.

It actually is. It's very well written, and well researched. Some amazing stories, especially the suicide section. Talk about a crazy twist of fate, when some just slip a little and drop to their deaths a few hundred feet down, and then some people do swan dives from a sprinting start and survive.

Air traffic has killed the most, though.

[glademaster]

I'll bet most any NP park rangers can write such a blog entry. I just finished this: https://www.amazon.com/Over-Edge-Dea.../dp/097009731X hoo boy, the things stupid humans do.

If you enjoyed that, this is worth checking out: https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Vanish-S.../dp/153874757X

[hatchgreenchile]

Uh, trigger warning for the Colorado mags?
Tell me about all those 14ers with 7000' gains too.

[MakersTeleMark]

Uh, trigger warning for the Colorado mags?
Tell me about all those 14ers with 7000' gains too.

Whenever I summit Longs, I always start in Boulder for the full effect.

[old goat]

I have several friends who have done the 14k to summit in a day push, two of whom skied the Messner and were back to 14k feet an hour after standing on the summit. All of them are significantly above average in cardio capacity.

My buddy and I successfully made it from 14k-17k-summit-17k in a 36 hour push before getting caught in a two day storm at 17k. We'd been back and forth to 16k several times in the days leading up to that push, but were really feeling the altitude while waiting out weather 17k after our summit day.

Having been above 6,000 meters multiple times in the Himalayas, I think what they say about Denali feeling higher is true. 17k feet on Denali felt higher and more laborious than 20k feet in Nepal. It seems like a lot of people under estimate the effects of altitude on Denali (myself included).

Might not Everest climbers be better acclimatized due to the trek to base camp and the regimen of climbing high and sleeping low? (Disclaimer--I haven't done either. I get sick at 10K--or used to until I moved to 6K.)

[Buster Highmen]

So, have the Rangers posted here yet?

[brutah]

Might not Everest climbers be better acclimatized due to the trek to base camp and the regimen of climbing high and sleeping low? (Disclaimer--I haven't done either. I get sick at 10K--or used to until I moved to 6K.)

you don't think people climbing Denali do acclimatization climbs while going up the mountain?

They drop off climbers at 7000 feet on the kahiltna glacier and it takes most 3-5 days to get up to 14k if the weather's good. The southern trek to Everest Base Camp starts in Lukia which has an elevation just over 9000 feet and Everest Base camp is around 17k.

Barometric Pressure is less the further you get from the equator and the himalayas are at 27.9881 degrees north latitude and Denali is at 63.1148 degrees north. Less Barometric Pressure means there is less oxygen in the atmosphere to begin with. It's one of the factors that makes climbing Denali difficult.

[Kevo]

Might not Everest climbers be better acclimatized due to the trek to base camp and the regimen of climbing high and sleeping low? (Disclaimer--I haven't done either. I get sick at 10K--or used to until I moved to 6K.)

You're definitely supposed to climb high/ sleep low on Denali, but weather is often a factor (it's not uncommon to have storms last a week or more) so climbers often try to fit summit pushes into short weather windows between storms.

In retrospect, my partner and I were a bit aggressive about this because of hearing from other teams on the mountain who had been stuck at 17k feet for 10+ days, during which they lost too much weight and energy and had to bail. It worked for us, but we did roll the dice a bit.

[ptavv]

Barometric Pressure is less the further you get from the equator and the himalayas are at 27.9881 degrees north latitude and Denali is at 63.1148 degrees north. Less Barometric Pressure means there is less oxygen in the atmosphere to begin with. It's one of the factors that makes climbing Denali difficult.

It's true that there's a barometric pressure effect related to latitude, but it is equivalent to ~500 meters of elevation under most "real world" circumstances, and even choosing the most extreme comparator summits in the world with the largest seasonal shifts the difference is about ~1000 meters of elevation. Also worth noting that the effect is (comparatively) larger in winter due to the significantly lower temperatures.

Good explanation here: http://mapaspects.org/tripcevich-phd...c-p/index.html

[EWG]

Whenever I summit Longs, I always start in Boulder for the full effect.

Yeah I’ve been meaning to talk to you guys about that. You are trashing the place. Empty oxygen tanks, feces, trash etc all over Boulder. You know how hard this stuff is remove from base camp?

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Yeah I’ve been meaning to talk to you guys about that. You are trashing the place. Empty oxygen tanks, feces, trash etc all over Boulder. You know how hard this stuff is remove from base camp?

Those are actually nitrous tanks. The Hill base camp is littered with them.

[EWG]

Those are actually nitrous tanks. The Hill base camp is littered with them.

Ok that makes more sense. I couldn’t figure out why the climbers were carrying around balloons.

[brutah]

It's true that there's a barometric pressure effect related to latitude, but it is equivalent to ~500 meters of elevation under most "real world" circumstances, and even choosing the most extreme comparator summits in the world with the largest seasonal shifts the difference is about ~1000 meters of elevation. Also worth noting that the effect is (comparatively) larger in winter due to the significantly lower temperatures.

Good explanation here: http://mapaspects.org/tripcevich-phd...c-p/index.html

I think 500 meters (1640 feet) is pretty significant when you're that high and already working in a low barometric pressure environment. 1000 m (3280 feet) is really significant imo. I know in my experience climbing Colorado 14ers that the final 500 meters going up to 4270 meters (14k feet) is significantly and noticeably more difficult than the previous 500 m due to lower amounts of oxygen present.

[ptavv]

I think 500 meters (1640 feet) is pretty significant when you're that high and already working in a low barometric pressure environment. 1000 m (3280 feet) is really significant imo. I know in my experience climbing Colorado 14ers that the final 500 meters going up to 4270 meters (14k feet) is significantly and noticeably more difficult than the previous 500 m due to lower amounts of oxygen present.

Fair point. 500 meters isn't nothing. Just wanted to point out that the barometric pressure bulge doesn't make mountains like Denali comparable to Himalayan 8,000 meter peaks. The most likely physiologic (as opposed to psychologic) effect that contributes to making Himalayan peaks "feel lower" is that the acclimatization period for Himalayan peaks is (almost always) substantially longer, if only because access is much more difficult.

There's also an underappreciated effect of temperature on barometric pressure that affects oxygenation at high altitudes. It can be almost as large an effect as the barometric pressure bulge when comparing usual winter and summer temperatures on many peaks.

[Svengali]

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/11...r-utah-doctor/

[bean]

I summitted from 14 when I went, if I ever go back I'll do it again. Because I'm from Colorado.

[NBABUCKS1]

pretty sure I ran into that dude in the snowbasin parking lot as they were practicing for their trip this summer

[old goat]

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/11...r-utah-doctor/

No doubt his defense will be that he wasn't thinking clearly because of the altitude.

[t-the-east]

From the “terse” ranger article linked from that one. West buttress 5/30/21