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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bite Me View Post
    Well, ummm, ahhh, have to disagree. Yes, if you want to have the Dead's "wall of sound", then make some massive cabinets. Bet even then, remember that they used a whole bunch of fairly small JBL cabinets driven by Macs so they got the loud but clean sound that Mr. Owsley paid for. For pure unadulterated massive volume, sure, build the biggest you can, but if ear bleeding volume isn't your reason for being, then there's other, more subtle ways to deal with things that gain you other, different advantages. Depends on what you want your system to be.

    I like exquisite imaging (spacial cues from the recording ) is Hendrix 5.5 or 6 feet tall? How far back is the drummer, you can REALLY hear the staircase at Hedley Grange in that Zep tune, Stevie Nicks takes a step back from the mike for the chorus. Great imaging makes some recordings more like having the band in the room. A great imaging system makes it so you don't even know where the speakers are - ONLY a small cabinet can pull that off. That's why some mini or micro speakers are used in the finest systems. My ears bleed with horn tweeters, like fingernails on a blackboard (one reason that any quasi serious speaker doesn't have them). A smooth tweeter is the making for a super high end speaker (look at Wilson of the others for outstanding tweeters).

    Have to disagree about power as well unless you're running head banging stuff all the top at ear bleeding volume. Running normal volume is about 1-2 watts. LOUD is a continuous 10 watts. Peaks are 10 x rms power, so let's say the party is on, and you're starting with background. The most the amp will see is maybe 15 watts. When you grunting starts, you'll be seeing 150 -200 watt instantaneous peaks. Most any decent receiver can do that, and smaller speakers aren't terribly inefficient. Yes, larger speakers can and probably will be more efficient, but there's a lot of negative issues associated with that as the literature clearly defines (cones that are poorly damped or controlled being the primary one).

    My go to for the past few years has been Gallo Reference 5.5. wrap around 180 tweeter, no crossovers, individual midranges in oval spheres to minimize internal standing waves, 10 inch woofer with two voice coils that can also be powered separately as a subwoofer. One of the top choices from the audiophile rags for a long time. And yes, they'll play loud enough through the Bryston 4BSST that you don't want to be in the room for more than 10 second. Oh, and they're barely 3 feet tall:

    Attachment 374740Attachment 374738

    As far as woofers, I'm sure the whole neighborhood shakes with that set-up. That being said, the simple physics is that (in this case anyway) size doesn't have to matter, as first proven by Bob Carver's super-cube some years ago. It's about the amount of air being moved, and that can be a hudge cone going back and forth a bit, or a much smaller cone (10 inch), having a 1 inch excursion. Same amount of air moved. OK, it takes a lot of power (allegedly 1200 watts of class d power with the carver), but class d power is cheap, so no biggee.

    Yes, the Marantz CODEC's (EQ included) are quite good. The proprietary Anthem ones kick their ass however. That being said, I have a Marantz 8802b pre-amp, so I've been OK living with it for a while.
    Iím with you on power and imaging. I use some vintage M&K Sat and Sub inherited from my uncle. One of the first systems of itís kind. I refoamed the sub and this system is simply amazing. Low power sub amp for music, you donít need tons of power. I also have some vintage ADS monitors for cds and vinyl through the tube amp.


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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Dayton Audio btr01. From parts express. Best value great sound. I use one with my tube amp to stream Spotify. $50.


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    Excellent value piece. Subscribe to this and get other excellent suggestions at all price ranges.

    https://www.audioadvisor.com/product...RoC8owQAvD_BwE

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    I’m with you on power and imaging. I use some vintage M&K Sat and Sub inherited from my uncle. One of the first systems of it’s kind. I refoamed the sub and this system is simply amazing. Low power sub amp for music, you don’t need tons of power. I also have some vintage ADS monitors for cds and vinyl through the tube amp.


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    I had the ADS sub/sat system back-in-the-day. I forget the model of the satellites, but man, they were fine. 2 x 10 in the sub module. heavy bugger. Funny that that system was dead-on with the JBL L-100's of that day, which have now been re-issued with the orange egg-crate grills. Sometimes I think about a vintage system - the good old days with the EPI 100's and the Pioneer 727 in high school..........

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    I’m with you on power and imaging. I use some vintage M&K Sat and Sub inherited from my uncle. One of the first systems of it’s kind. I refoamed the sub and this system is simply amazing. Low power sub amp for music, you don’t need tons of power. I also have some vintage ADS monitors for cds and vinyl through the tube amp.


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    You don't need loads of power if the subwoofer has its own power. Otherwise you have to do things like buy a crown amp that weighs 100 pounds and constantly sucks 600 watts from nvenergy. I have turned that set-up on less and less.
    Own your fail. ~Jer~

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT View Post
    You don't need loads of power if the subwoofer has its own power. Otherwise you have to do things like buy a crown amp that weighs 100 pounds and constantly sucks 600 watts from nvenergy. I have turned that set-up on less and less.
    My MK Volkswoofer has itís own amp, itís only 150 watts. Itís for music not home theater. Itís very efficient.


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  6. #31
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    Fair enough: for pure music at reasonable volumes in a small room the small setup is prob great. If you want your system to do double duty for movies, though, you need at least bigger subs.

    My room is huge (32'x25'x9'H), so pressurizing it requires bigger drivers and a lot of power. I also like to listen to electronic music at high volume sometimes.

    It's great that there is such a variety of gear out there. Some people like 165mm GS skis and some like Lotus 120s. There's no single correct answer.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  7. #32
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    ^^^Fine, but you're still better off with multiple smaller subs than one or two ginormous just for the sake of standing waves in the room. And show me an 18 inch that has anywhere near the control of a smaller servo sub driver.

    Hey, if I was in a John Entwisle sound-alike contest in a stadium, I'd go with the 18s all day. I have 4 Gallo self-powered 10's scatter about in my prime listening room, and I get movement through my concrete slab. Theater room has 2 x JL Audio's Fathom 11's. Really, The biggest driver they make is a 12. There's a reason.

    Sorta like taking 120mm skis to the least coast. You can do it, but it's unnecessary.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Dayton Audio btr01. From parts express. Best value great sound. I use one with my tube amp to stream Spotify. $50.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Very interested. I have heard wifi mo-better than bluetooth? Any issues with the Bluetooth or it cutting out or being wonky? Thanks!
    He who has the most fun wins!

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bite Me View Post
    ^^^Fine, but you're still better off with multiple smaller subs than one or two ginormous just for the sake of standing waves in the room. And show me an 18 inch that has anywhere near the control of a smaller servo sub driver.

    Hey, if I was in a John Entwisle sound-alike contest in a stadium, I'd go with the 18s all day. I have 4 Gallo self-powered 10's scatter about in my prime listening room, and I get movement through my concrete slab. Theater room has 2 x JL Audio's Fathom 11's. Really, The biggest driver they make is a 12. There's a reason.

    Sorta like taking 120mm skis to the least coast. You can do it, but it's unnecessary.


    Is this a 2-channel signal in your prime listening room?
    If so, do you string subs - output from main amp or pre goes from one sub per channel to the next? Or does your amp have multiple sub outs per channel? Or do you use a mixer or some other way to get the correct output and impedance from your 2-channel amp?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Is this a 2-channel signal in your prime listening room?
    If so, do you string subs - output from main amp or pre goes from one sub per channel to the next? Or does your amp have multiple sub outs per channel? Or do you use a mixer or some other way to get the correct output and impedance from your 2-channel amp?
    My Denon has 2 sub outputs, each with separate automagically Audyssey tuned EQ. One goes to each 2-driver IB sub (via the iNuke amp). One sub is in the crawl space and the other is on the attic. Adding the second one helped with standing waves.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  11. #36
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    My 2 cents is that 2 subs are better than 1. 2 8" subs will not dig as deep or hit as hard as 2 12". The denon audessy or whatever it's called is using time alignment to adjust the phase of each speaker in the system relative to the listening position so the waves all arrive to the listening position in phase. It is also adding equalization to create a smooth flat response curve compensating for funky room acoustics. You may not have dsp functions to adjust your phase and equalization curves. But, if you are going use powered subwoofers, look for subs that have a phase control knob to allow you to put them into phase. Do this after you place them where they are going to stay. If you move them around, you need to realign the phase. A high quality 12" will have no trouble being controlled by a powerful amp, and you can get just as tight bass as a lower powered 8" or 10", but more power, more impact, lower bass. Two 8s will sound good. Two 12s will sound better. Need more power for the big ones. Two of either size is better than one of the other.
    If you have the choice to run separate left and right signals out to each respective sub, your bass will be in stereo, even better! (Still need to set phase!)
    Not gonna get into setting crossovers in this post, but we can in another...

    sent from Utah.
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  12. #37
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    Going further...
    Case scenario, 2 channel system. Preamp has two sets of preouts sending full range signals out. You can send one set (2 channels l and r) of preouts to your main 2 channel amp powering your main speakers. Standard stereo setup. Next, we can add two subs add stereo bass to the system. From the second set of preouts, send the left signal to the sub on the left and the right to the right sub. Done? NO! Because your preouts are full range (no high pass filter taking the sub bass signal out) to your main speakers, you need to analyze the frequency response from your main speakers (subs disconnected) using a pink noise generator and a spectrum analyzer to determine where the bass response begins to drop off. Do it with the volume at a good solid listening volume. Note the frequency where response drops. Hook up the subs and adjust the crossovers on your subwoofer amp (oops don't have one of those? Your need this if your preouts are full range...) to match the above frequency (really a hair below that frequency.) Playing the pink noise again, bring the gain on the subs up so your frequency response in the spectrum analyzer begins to look flatter down in the lower frequencies where you saw the response from your mains drop off. Ok, now check that your gain is set for the subs so you are getting similar levels from each one. Disconnect main speakers. Again, pink noise and spectrum analyzer, set subwoofer amp gain so sound level is equal from each sub at the listening position. Check overall response with mains again. Adjust gain if necessary.
    To do the time alignment or phase adjustment, there are a couple different ways to do it. One, with the pink noise playing, look for dips and peaks in the response curve for the subs. These dips and peaks in response are where out of phase waves are summing or cancelling each other out. Very slowly adjust the phase knob to look for a setting that fills the dips and flattens the curves. Success? Sweet. You're done. Method two requires busting out the calculator calculating wavelength of a certain frequency, say 40hz, measuring the distance from each sub to the listening position, blah blah blah lots of match to adjust phase, and because the phase adjustment knob is not going to be very accurately marked just skip this method...
    Hook up main speakers again, check overall response curve with pink noise again, look good? Put your favorite disc in and let her rip! Did you get it right? Yes? Awesome! No? Fubar? Start over.

    sent from Utah.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    My Denon has 2 sub outputs, each with separate automagically Audyssey tuned EQ. One goes to each 2-driver IB sub (via the iNuke amp). One sub is in the crawl space and the other is on the attic. Adding the second one helped with standing waves.
    2 sub outs per channel? Pls link. TIA

    I understand it's easy enough to run 2 subs [or 4] if you connect the subs to the 4-8ohm [A+B] main outs, then connect 1 speaker to the sub's 4-8ohm out...But that's typically a compromise of impedances [as well as phase], particularly if you are driving a daisy chain of speakers from one amplifier.

  14. #39
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    You can run multiple subs off of one speaker output, if you have enough power, and wire them for proper impedance. Wiring two 4 ohm subs in series will give you a resistance of 8 ohms, and wiring two 4 ohm subs in parallel will give you a 2 ohm resistance. Not many normal full range amps are rated for 2 ohms. Furthermore, if you are using the a or b speaker outputs to drive the sub, you need a crossover solution. Also, remember that if you are bridging 2 channel output so you have enough power, a bridged amp actually sees half the impedance presented by the speaker. So if you bridge two channels of speaker outputs to drive a 4 ohm sub, the amp actually sees 2 ohms. Can your amp drive a 2 ohm load? Do you have a crossover solution in place to only pass low frequencies to the sub?

    If you take two subs, single 4 ohm voice coil, each rated for say 300 watts, and you wire them in series, so, 8 ohms resistance, you will need a massively powerful amplifier to power them correctly (6-800watts @8ohms). Underpowering your subwoofer can lead to clipping and burned out voice coils. A 300watt rated sub with 4 ohm resistance should be driven by an amp that can push 350-500 watts at 4 ohms. ALWAYS better to overpower vs underpower (goes for any speaker).

    Multiple voice coil drivers
    Dual voice coil subwoofer are just what they sound like. A single driver with 2 voice coils that can be wired in series or in parallel. Again, two 8 ohm voice coils in parallel will present 4 ohm load to amp. Two 8 ohm voice coils in series will present 16 ohms to the amp.

    Edit. Someone broke into my car and stole my 12" sub, diamond d5 1200.1 sub amp, diamond d5 300.2 amp, and jacked up my wiring, so amps and subs are on my mind lately. Grrr. Luckily they were unable to remove the 600.4 amp and the zapco dsp.

    sent from Utah.
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  15. #40
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    Ouch.
    Welp, make lemonade and build your own powered sub system with your own bespoke discrete components. You now have the opportunity to design and execute your own signal chain, aux power, and sub system installation security. Maybe check out pawn shops while you're in there giving them a list of your stolen property...But it has to start with a plan else you just end up cobbling deal parts together.

  16. #41
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    Yeah. It won't be too cobbled together. Just picked up a diamond d5 450.2 for free (needs repair, but these are fairly easy fingers crossed) very similar to the 300.2 that was stolen, and the 600.4 which I still have. And another guy is bringing by a d5 600.2. but I will need a good sub amp. The diamond d5 1200.1 was a beast. Could have run 2 power hungry 12s without breaking a sweat. I was only running one. Still have the zapco dsp which is incredible. The interface for setting everything up is brilliant, mad crossover and time alignment controls, level setting, etc. All with pink noise and spectrum analyzer of course. System was badass. Gotta make it badass again.

    sent from Utah.
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  17. #42
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    Anyone have any luck using powered speakers/studio monitors for a computer desk setup?

    Would rather not get a dedicated amp there but would still like good quality so wanted to run from the DAC to something a bit better than your standard PC speakers.

    Thinking something like KRK Rokit/Mackie/Audioengine and small (like 3-4" woofer small). No need to fill the room, mostly concerned with near field listening.

    Anyone see any problems with this idea?

  18. #43
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    Go for glory!!

    https://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/

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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTeton View Post
    Go for glory!!

    https://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/

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    Ha. That place is just down the road from me and I pass it every time I go by to get my bi-weekly bag of coffee from the local roaster. It's a surprisingly small facility.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    Anyone have any luck using powered speakers/studio monitors for a computer desk setup?

    Would rather not get a dedicated amp there but would still like good quality so wanted to run from the DAC to something a bit better than your standard PC speakers.

    Thinking something like KRK Rokit/Mackie/Audioengine and small (like 3-4" woofer small). No need to fill the room, mostly concerned with near field listening.

    Anyone see any problems with this idea?

    You can pick up powered 5" class AB monitors from Monoprice [aka Maudio] for $159/pr. They'll have RCA plugs [and TPS and XLR too, if you have a balanced DAC].
    They have 2 amplifiers per speaker, totaling about 70w, and each speaker has an A/C cord, crossover and LPF switches, and a volume control. They're about 8" square at the base. You should have no problems getting overkill volume out of them, but a 5" woofer isn't going to bring the bass like something bigger. But they also sell a 10" Class D powered reference sub for a good price...
    No problems, except slight overkill. They're larger than desktop speakers and sorta heavy [they have amps inside]. And they each need a plug-in.

    https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=625880
    Last edited by highangle; 06-18-2021 at 12:16 PM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    You can pick up powered 5" class AB monitors from Monoprice [aka Maudio] for $159/pr. They'll have RCA plugs [and TPS and XLR too, if you have a balanced DAC].
    They have 2 amplifiers per speaker, totaling about 70w, and each speaker has an A/C cord, crossover and LPF switches, and a volume control. They're about 8" square at the base. You should have no problems getting overkill volume out of them, but a 5" woofer isn't going to bring the bass like something bigger. But they also sell a 10" Class D powered reference sub for a good price...
    No problems, except slight overkill. They're larger than desktop speakers and sorta heavy [they have amps inside]. And they each need a plug-in.

    https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=625880
    We did something similar in our conference room with M Audio powered speakers. No sub. Works and sounds better than I expected.

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

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