Replacing Marker Griffon demo bindings for Look Pivot - worth it?

**SkifishSLC** · 05-12-2021, 12:16 PM

I own a pair of Bent Chetler 120s with Griffon demo bindings. I have the chance to pick up some Look Pivot 14 AWs for relatively cheap.

Do you guys think these will make much difference? From what I read, the Marker Griffon demos are one of the better demo bindings out there.. but I don't know how the compare to something like the pivots.

Thanks!

**sierra_cement** · 05-12-2021, 12:38 PM

Probably. I prerelease out of griffins on a pair of my skis more often than i prerelease out of pivots on my other skis.

My pivots are also easier to click into in powder.

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**waveshello** · 05-12-2021, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nadox

I own a pair of Bent Chetler 120s with Griffon demo bindings. I have the chance to pick up some Look Pivot 14 AWs for relatively cheap.

Do you guys think these will make much difference? From what I read, the Marker Griffon demos are one of the better demo bindings out there.. but I don't know how the compare to something like the pivots.

Thanks!

IMO:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

If the markers have been working well for you, if they keep you in when you want and let you out when you need, the pivots aren't going to change your life.

But if the pivots match better, then it's definitely worth it.

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**EWG** · 05-12-2021, 12:44 PM

I will always pick any fixed binding over any demo binding.

**phatboy64** · 05-12-2021, 04:34 PM

I skied the Marker demo binding on a pair of Mantra M6 for three days. BTW I am a Look Fan Boy.
I had no issues, unless there was something you don’t like about your current setup not sure I would redrill

Edit: I agree, if it was a flat ski and I were picking bindings I would always go with the fixed setup...

**Brasso** · 05-12-2021, 05:53 PM

Not worth a redrill.

**PeachesNCream** · 05-13-2021, 12:19 PM

I'm in a similar situation but with Attack2 13 AT demo binders and thinking about switching to pivots. I've developed some slop which seems to be a theme with demo binders. I think I'll switch to fixed

**gregorys** · 05-13-2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by EWG

I will always pick any fixed binding over any demo binding.

I will always pick a demo binding over any fixed binding.

**gregorys** · 05-13-2021, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nadox

Do you guys think these will make much difference? From what I read, the Marker Griffon demos are one of the better demo bindings out there.. but I don't know how the compare to something like the pivots.

Perhaps it makes sense?
I wouldn't.

I personally loan out skis a ton, and demo's are just handy. While I don't care for the heel pieces on Marker bindings, especially in deep pow - that's not a "demo" binding complaint. If I were picking between the marker demo and non-demo, I'd probably pick the demo because it has higher utility for me. But I'd pick something other than Marker, because I don't like the hassle getting into the heels on Griffon, et al. I actually have a pair of demo Jesters on my Bodacious' and I'll leave them (at least until I have issues with them), because they were mounted that way when I got the skis. They're not my favorite, but they're fine.

No modern demo binding (in the last 5-10 years) that I've skied is a problem. They all ski perfectly fine. A bit heavier than a non-demo, but most alpine skiers aren't exactly weight weenies.

If it makes you happier, then do it. But I don't think there's any technical or functional reason to do so.

**XXX-er** · 05-13-2021, 01:48 PM

I wouldn't bother changing them, IME a demo works fine They are heavier but a benifit is you can change up boot center on a demo with a couple of clicks,

you will sometimes get nose bleeds from being that high off the ski

**f=ma** · 05-13-2021, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Brasso

Not worth a redrill.

Agreed. Had attack2 demo bindings, redrilled for pivots. Not worth the redrill.

**PeachesNCream** · 05-13-2021, 02:59 PM

Hmm, now I'm rethinking. Esp because more heavy is more better in my mind. I have a little slop when I wiggle my ski, pretty minor but noticeable. You think it's enough to make a difference on snow? I don't notice but I only have demo binders and touring binders to compare to.

**gregorys** · 05-13-2021, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

Hmm, now I'm rethinking. Esp because more heavy is more better in my mind. I have a little slop when I wiggle my ski, pretty minor but noticeable. You think it's enough to make a difference on snow? I don't notice but I only have demo binders and touring binders to compare to.

I'm conflicted. I want your Attack2's, if/when you yank them...so that side of me says "Yes, absolutely, you'll love other bindings!"

But honestly? Once the binding is loaded with the back-pressure, any minor fiddle-room is going to be locked out. (At least that's my opinion.)
I don't know that "more heavy" is better, in total. But heavy isn't a problem in my mind.

Heavy alone isn't likely an attribute I'd look for, but I also know that all the skis I actually like, they're generally heavy as hell. So, tacking on a bit of weight for demo's isn't something I view as a problem worth worrying about.

**SkifishSLC** · 05-13-2021, 05:32 PM

Appreciate all the feedback everyone! I'm going to stick with the demos for now since I don't have any issues with them

**EWG** · 05-13-2021, 08:11 PM

I don’t like the stack height of demos. Changes the ski to me. But the weight difference is so small - weight is not a reason to change.

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**MyNameIsAugustWest** · 05-17-2021, 04:19 PM

Now that you've gotten all of this solid feedback, it's time to post pics of your wife's/girlfriend's tits.

**Shorty_J** · 05-19-2021, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

Hmm, now I'm rethinking. Esp because more heavy is more better in my mind. I have a little slop when I wiggle my ski, pretty minor but noticeable. You think it's enough to make a difference on snow? I don't notice but I only have demo binders and touring binders to compare to.

Can you describe the slop?

I've noticed some play in the heel and toe pieces without the boot clicked in but once I do I've never noticed it.

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**XXX-er** · 05-19-2021, 08:59 PM

exactly ^^ once you click in the forward pressure of the binding takes up the slop

**ntblanks** · 05-19-2021, 09:30 PM

I'm big on learning by trying stuff. Yeah, it's an investment, but if you love to ski... Pivots sit as low on the ski as you can get in a modern alpine binding afaik It's a different experience than standing tall on a demo binding (though stack height on griffon demos isn't the worst (but there is reverse delta, which is uncommon)). I like both demo & pivot but they're pretty different designs. My thought: grab the pivots and get a used pair of wide skis cheap to try em out. You'll find out what all the fuss is about and you can decide for yourself. And if you don't like 'em, pivots are easy to sell.

**Shorty_J** · 05-19-2021, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by ntblanks

I'm big on learning by trying stuff. Yeah, it's an investment, but if you love to ski... Pivots sit as low on the ski as you can get in a modern alpine binding afaik It's a different experience than standing tall on a demo binding (though stack height on griffon demos isn't the worst (but there is reverse delta, which is uncommon)). I like both demo & pivot but they're pretty different designs. My thought: grab the pivots and get a used pair of wide skis cheap to try em out. You'll find out what all the fuss is about and you can decide for yourself. And if you don't like 'em, pivots are easy to sell.

I am wrong a lot and may be again, but I think because of gripwalk compatibility, pivots hanged the toe shim, resulting in similar stack but different ramp.

I feel like I read somewhere that attack NON demo has the lowest stack height.

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**phatboy64** · 05-20-2021, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by ntblanks

I'm big on learning by trying stuff. Yeah, it's an investment, but if you love to ski... Pivots sit as low on the ski as you can get in a modern alpine binding afaik It's a different experience than standing tall on a demo binding (though stack height on griffon demos isn't the worst (but there is reverse delta, which is uncommon)). I like both demo & pivot but they're pretty different designs. My thought: grab the pivots and get a used pair of wide skis cheap to try em out. You'll find out what all the fuss is about and you can decide for yourself. And if you don't like 'em, pivots are easy to sell.

I am assuming by reverse delta you mean the toe is higher then the heal. Other then being taller across the board the heal is 4 mm taller than the toe

Look Pivot 18
* Stack Height: 18 mm (toe); 19 mm (heel)
* Elasticity – Toe: 40 mm
* Elasticity – Heel: 28 mm

Marker Griffon 13 ID
* Stack Height: 18 mm (toe); 22 mm (heel)
* Elasticity – Toe: 30 mm
* Elasticity – Heel: 16 mm

**gregorys** · 05-21-2021, 12:26 PM

I dunno, maybe I'm just a caveman skier, but what's the obsession with stack height?
Perhaps I'm kind of like Remy's brother (Emile) eating any old shit in Ratatouille (Pixar), but I've never considered it much. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtEjJuGo_U)

Stack height? Really?
I've stepped off a pair of skis onto another pair with lower stack and I've never noticed any difference.
(I'd swear I traded Cochises's with a friend this year - he was on Attack1's and mine are Attack2's. Certainly I've done it before with other skis.)

I don't want to say it doesn't matter at all. I'd guess it probably does. But I'd be shocked if I could tell a difference, in a blinded test.
Thag full after eating garbage. Thag go back to skiing now.

**sierra_cement** · 05-21-2021, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by gregorys

I dunno, maybe I'm just a caveman skier, but what's the obsession with stack height?
Perhaps I'm kind of like Remy's brother (Emile) eating any old shit in Ratatouille (Pixar), but I've never considered it much. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtEjJuGo_U)

Stack height? Really?
I've stepped off a pair of skis onto another pair with lower stack and I've never noticed any difference.
(I'd swear I traded Cochises's with a friend this year - he was on Attack1's and mine are Attack2's. Certainly I've done it before with other skis.)

I don't want to say it doesn't matter at all. I'd guess it probably does. But I'd be shocked if I could tell a difference, in a blinded test.
Thag full after eating garbage. Thag go back to skiing now.

That ^^. I've got Griffens, attacks, pivots, wardens, some as demos, but most as fixed bindings, in my quiver. If you blindfolded me, i wouldn't be able to tell the difference while clicked in and skiing.

Pivots prerelease less than the others for me, but that's about it.

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**CaliBrit** · 05-21-2021, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by gregorys

I dunno, maybe I'm just a caveman skier, but what's the obsession with stack height?
Perhaps I'm kind of like Remy's brother (Emile) eating any old shit in Ratatouille (Pixar), but I've never considered it much. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtEjJuGo_U)

Stack height? Really?
I've stepped off a pair of skis onto another pair with lower stack and I've never noticed any difference.
(I'd swear I traded Cochises's with a friend this year - he was on Attack1's and mine are Attack2's. Certainly I've done it before with other skis.)

I don't want to say it doesn't matter at all. I'd guess it probably does. But I'd be shocked if I could tell a difference, in a blinded test.
Thag full after eating garbage. Thag go back to skiing now.

You look shorter on your skis so you can get away with skiing on a kids pass. Same reason you use short poles. Just capitalism at work.

**XXX-er** · 05-21-2021, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by gregorys

I dunno, maybe I'm just a caveman skier, but what's the obsession with stack height?
Perhaps I'm kind of like Remy's brother (Emile) eating any old shit in Ratatouille (Pixar), but I've never considered it much. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtEjJuGo_U)

Stack height? Really?
I've stepped off a pair of skis onto another pair with lower stack and I've never noticed any difference.
(I'd swear I traded Cochises's with a friend this year - he was on Attack1's and mine are Attack2's. Certainly I've done it before with other skis.)

I don't want to say it doesn't matter at all. I'd guess it probably does. But I'd be shocked if I could tell a difference, in a blinded test.

well you don't sound like any special flower if you don't get the nose bleeds from the extra stack height

?

i think somebody wrote it in a ski mag artical cuz they needed to fill the page with something/ anything regarding a big nothing subject, so now everybody can feel the dreaded extra stack height

while ironcaly the slalom skiers who actulay are really good skiers who really are competing want more stack height for more clearance & more leverage

I think stack height is BS, I think once the boot is under forward pressure slop in a demo binding is BS ... maybe if we repeat this enough it will also become true

i put a 25mm G3 shim under a Riva II and skied it with a leather boot ... I couldn't feel the difference