Replacing Marker Griffon demo bindings for Look Pivot - worth it?

[Shorty_J]

I dunno, maybe I'm just a caveman skier, but what's the obsession with stack height?
Perhaps I'm kind of like Remy's brother (Emile) eating any old shit in Ratatouille (Pixar), but I've never considered it much. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtEjJuGo_U)

Stack height? Really?
I've stepped off a pair of skis onto another pair with lower stack and I've never noticed any difference.
(I'd swear I traded Cochises's with a friend this year - he was on Attack1's and mine are Attack2's. Certainly I've done it before with other skis.)

I don't want to say it doesn't matter at all. I'd guess it probably does. But I'd be shocked if I could tell a difference, in a blinded test.
Thag full after eating garbage. Thag go back to skiing now.

It would be tougher to test as you'd really need multiple pairs of the same skis with the same bindings, but shimmed to different heights.

I'm not that rad of a skier but I can absolutely notice a difference of 1cm, and on some skis even 0.5cm of mount point change. But this is the same binding on the same ski with subtle changes forward and back, skied on the same day.

I'd bet there is a difference but I don't know what it is I don't have the equipment to properly test it.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

[XXX-er]

i remounted a ripped out tech toe 1 cm back cuz of topsheet damage for a buddy , injected the area with slow set & remounted, asked if he wanted the other ski changed he said lets try it like that

good skier, sez no difference he can tell and its still lopsided

[Shorty_J]

i remounted a ripped out tech toe 1 cm back cuz of topsheet damage for a buddy , injected the area with slow set & remounted, asked if he wanted the other ski changed he said lets try it like that

good skier, sez no difference he can tell and its still lopsided

Ok but let's take this experiment to the extreme and say we mount 1 ski 5cm further back than the other. Would you feel it then?

If you agree you would then there is a difference even in 1cm... it's just a matter of scale.

Telling someone not to stress because they have to go 1cm from where they would prefer is fair, but this is tech talk and it's ok to geek out on what is better and why.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

[XXX-er]

Ok but let's take this experiment to the extreme and say we mount 1 ski 5cm further back than the other. Would you feel it then?

If you agree you would then there is a difference even in 1cm... it's just a matter of scale.

Telling someone not to stress because they have to go 1cm from where they would prefer is fair, but this is tech talk and it's ok to geek out on what is better and why.

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

yes you would feel a 5cm mismatch but we are talking about 1 cm or a 1/2 inch in American

I have moved boot centr up to 6cm (both skis) with a 4frt dead bolt demo binding on a wailer, did back to back pow runs IME you you don't feel 1cm, you start to feel 2cm, I actualy liked/ stayed at +4cm themostest and 6 was unbalanced but 1 inch off the ski I couldnt feel with leatehr boots and skinny skis so i actulay have played with mounting points back to back in a more or less organized fashion as oposed to just repeating something i read on TGR

In any case what we got on this page is a few skiers finally coming togetehr on something they thot was bulshit sayin " hey can you feel a difference cuz i can't " so either they are caveman or somebody made up the initial idea, then somebody repeated it enough to become an accepted idea and that is the crux of it

its ok to geek out on what is better and why but its also ok to point out y'all were fed and might just be repeating bulshit ... what is known as " the illusory truth effect "


" Do you guys think these will make much difference? " was the initial good question, so why waste OP's money ?

[gregorys]

well you don't sound like any special flower if you don't get the nose bleeds from the extra stack height ?

<snark>
In all fairness, I should be impacted way more than the usual person for stack height.
I mean, the last time I climbed Mt Adams, I got HAPE.

So, if I don't feel the stack height, I think it's all a myth!
</snark>

(Yeah, I know, like ... Am I a wimp or what!? FTR, I always feel like crap above like 8K when I'm climbing. Sucks. Don't climb much any more.)

[Vitamin I]

...
In any case what we got on this page is a few skiers finally coming togetehr on something they thot was bulshit sayin " hey can you feel a difference cuz i can't " so either they are caveman or somebody made up the initial idea, then somebody repeated it enough to become an accepted idea and that is the crux of it...

So, you're saying there are only 2 possible explanations (i.e. either 1. cavemen, or 2. a made-up idea). Why do you believe there could not possibly be any 3rd explanation? Weird.

Also, when you personally don't sense a difference between 2 things after a brief attempt, why do you conclude that no human is capable of trying harder and practicing more and yes---developing the ability to sense a difference that you missed on your first try? Weird to conclude such a thing.

I assure you that humans exist who can sense performance differences in stack height (like high frame bindings vs. low-stack regular bindings) and also who can sense fore/aft mount positions in increments as small as 0.4cm...and likely even smaller increments if they were to bother to try even harder to practice and improve that sense.

But yeah, O.P asked is it "worth it" to remount, and I agree with you on that one---add me to the votes for "No".

.

[XXX-er]

# 3 could be god?

3 people in one thread (one of whom thinks he might be a caveman) have said they don't feel any difference, this is unprecedented in my mind cuz up till now everybody just regurgitated the same mantra, in any case I'm pretty sure the guy who made it up didnt do any back to back blind testing



If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

Joseph Goebbels

[Shorty_J]

3 people in one thread (one of whom thinks he might be a caveman) have said they don't feel any difference, this is unprecedented in my mind cuz up till now everybody just regurgitated the same mantra, in any case I'm pretty sure the guy who made it up didnt do any back to back blind testing



If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

Joseph Goebbels

So your conclusion is that because your sample size of 4 (you and 3 others) can't feel it, that it's a lie perpetrated by the ski industry?

No other possibilities?

Is it even possible that people have read this thread who can feel it but they don't want to pipe up because you're going to call them a liar because you can't feel the same thing?

Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk

[XXX-er]

No i think a ski journalist made it up,

I don't hear anybody talking about testing setups,

they ask questions go on feelings just like the thread about their wives

and then they mount back of ski center anyway

and i don't believe in God

[pfluffenmeister]

Build me a binder with a stack height soooo high it will offend God!

[XXX-er]

I'm pretty sure God would be a telemarker

[Vitamin I]

No i think a ski journalist made it up,

I don't hear anybody talking about testing setups,

they ask questions go on feelings just like the thread about their wives

and then they mount back of ski center anyway

and i don't believe in God

I'm happy to tell you about my testing setups. But my methods are not "blind", so you can always use that to shoot me down.

Anyway, if you care about it, I'm happy to try to talk you through it. But the ability to sense small differences might be more of a curse than a gift, so maybe you'll have more fun skiing if you never sense such small differences.

.

[XXX-er]

give er

[skuff]

I'm pretty sure God would be a telemarker

I'm guessing He is a barefoot skier (rider?).... after all, He walked on water


so goes the story

[Core Shot]

I'm pretty sure God would be a telemarker

Jesus cares?

[XXX-er]

someone has to care that you telelmark, the jesus cares

[EWG]

FWIW, I can definitely tell a couple cm fore and aft, and have moved skis around on demo bindings due to that. I share skis with someone else who likes to fool around with moving things front and back and I’ve gotten them back and skied them, then realized they had been moved when I was already on the snow. Not sure how small the increments have been, but I know they were no more than a couple cm. Kinda, sorta a blind test I guess

Re: stack height, I will swear to you I can tell that also, however I think that’s primarily telling the difference between skis I have that are flat mount and skis with demo bindings. Switching back and forth bothers me as the ski is in a different place in relation to my boot bottom. Not a blind test however. Also, if all my skis were the higher stack height then maybe I would just be used to that and all would be fine. Not sure. But I can tell the difference skiing between the taller and shorter bindings, especially the feel for where the edges are in chop when setting the ski edge to edge between turns.

Again, one person just FWIW. Whatever works for you is fine with me.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Marshal Olson]

Done lots of A-B testing on many skis.

Generally can feel +\- 5mm to 7mm fore-aft. Would not remount unless I want to move AT LEAST 1cm

generally can feel ramp more than stack. I prefer 5mm of ramp (lower toe) on alpine bindings.

generally don’t feel stack height change on a fat skis unless it is closer to 1cm increase. Would not change just because of this.

generally speaking, I would only remount to fix a problem. Ie BSL does not fit, or the mount is more than 1cm off from where you want it... rather than to just swap around.

to the OP, the jester demo and jester retail bindings ski very similarly, so advise against chasing ghosts here.

[gregorys]

...the ability to sense small differences might be more of a curse than a gift, so maybe you'll have more fun skiing if you never sense such small differences.

This may well be true.
I will however say that I've heard a lot about stack, and about how, for example, the Attack2 demo is sucky because of the massive additional stack height. (I'm paraphrasing, and perhaps over-emphasizing the gist - but that's how I've heard it.)

And I think XXXer (while I think his brain has been addled by all the aquaseal ) has a reasonable point. (If perhaps said in the same over-confident tone of the "stack height kills" crowd.)

And I think that point is: There's been a lot said about stack height that is pretty dubious - at least IMO. (But then, I may just be like Amile and can't tell much difference between garbage and strawberries.)

Honestly, I don't care a lot what people think about my choice of bindings. They work for me, (with a range of considerations - which are wider than just which ski the "very best") and I really doubt that I could tell which was which - and even less likely, which stack height skis "better." But I don't think it's worth a religious war, actually.

But it's been an interesting discussion, all told.

Sorry to have so massively derailed the thread, OP.
(Though I do think you got some pretty good answers in spite of it all.)

[XXX-er]

Done lots of A-B testing on many skis.

Generally can feel +\- 5mm to 7mm fore-aft. Would not remount unless I want to move AT LEAST 1cm

generally can feel ramp more than stack. I prefer 5mm of ramp (lower toe) on alpine bindings.

generally don’t feel stack height change on a fat skis unless it is closer to 1cm increase. Would not change just because of this.

generally speaking, I would only remount to fix a problem. Ie BSL does not fit, or the mount is more than 1cm off from where you want it... rather than to just swap around.

to the OP, the jester demo and jester retail bindings ski very similarly, so advise against chasing ghosts here.

well i should hope you guys tested these skis before you sold em to us, getting a recommendation for boot center from the ski maker is always great IMO

but saying gee i wonder how this will ski and quantifying the differences is different than a preconcieved notion that isnt really backed up by anything other than what someone read or said on TGR

which goes against many TGR threads I have read where buddy just sez where do i mount this gets a bunch of BS answers, just mounts it back 2 cm and sez its great, but compared to what ?


the ski I played with was your beloved shinny top carbon wailer with a deadbolt13 demo, that was a great pow season so skied it at every where from -2 to +6 in soft conditions, I believe the shop was mounting at +2 back then, i ended up liking and staying with +4 , +6 actualy skied not bad cuz the ski still had float but it felt unbalanced fore/aft on landings, but all attempts at a - bootcenter setting sucked, cuz the ski bogged down

so besides you and me who does that^^ ? A demo bindings which would allow demo of a ski at different BC are taboo if you believe the rhetoric

[XXX-er]

This may well be true.
I will however say that I've heard a lot about stack, and about how, for example, the Attack2 demo is sucky because of the massive additional stack height. (I'm paraphrasing, and perhaps over-emphasizing the gist - but that's how I've heard it.)

And I think XXXer (while I think his brain has been addled by all the aquaseal ) has a reasonable point. (If perhaps said in the same over-confident tone of the "stack height kills" crowd.)

And I think that point is: There's been a lot said about stack height that is pretty dubious - at least IMO. (But then, I may just be like Amile and can't tell much difference between garbage and strawberries.)

Honestly, I don't care a lot what people think about my choice of bindings. They work for me, (with a range of considerations - which are wider than just which ski the "very best") and I really doubt that I could tell which was which - and even less likely, which stack height skis "better." But I don't think it's worth a religious war, actually.

But it's been an interesting discussion, all told.

Sorry to have so massively derailed the thread, OP.
(Though I do think you got some pretty good answers in spite of it all.)

its totally fair game to pick apart BS reasoning so this is great thread drift and hopefully gave the OP a reason to save his money



gotta go fix a bunch of drysuits,

tolulene doesn't huff it's self eh

[gregorys]

gotta go fix a bunch of drysuits,
tolulene doesn't huff it's self eh

Funny enough, I "re-taped" most of the all the seam tape on a Gore 3L jacket-shell recently using AQS (or the equivalent - thicker was better in my case.) I'm in the huffing crowd too! And I probably wouldn't have done it without your "fix anything with AQS" thread. Thanks for the inspiration - even if I give you a hard time about it.

[Marshal Olson]

well i should hope you guys tested these skis before you sold em to us, getting a recommendation for boot center from the ski maker is always great IMO

but saying gee i wonder how this will ski and quantifying the differences is different than a preconcieved notion that isnt really backed up by anything other than what someone read or said on TGR

which goes against many TGR threads I have read where buddy just sez where do i mount this gets a bunch of BS answers, just mounts it back 2 cm and sez its great, but compared to what ?


the ski I played with was your beloved shinny top carbon wailer with a deadbolt13 demo, that was a great pow season so skied it at every where from -2 to +6 in soft conditions, I believe the shop was mounting at +2 back then, i ended up liking and staying with +4 , +6 actualy skied not bad cuz the ski still had float but it felt unbalanced fore/aft on landings, but all attempts at a - bootcenter setting sucked, cuz the ski bogged down

so besides you and me who does that^^ ? A demo bindings which would allow demo of a ski at different BC are taboo if you believe the rhetoric

oh dude, totally. Agree strongly.

My point was that there are “significant figures” in terms of this stuff. It’s generally in about 5mm to 10mm increments.

i would add... personal style really matters. so listening to random internet folks can be problematic, unless there is strong shared previous experiences.