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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    Cycling with live stock is inhumane, no matter how you slice it. This hobby requires patience.
    I agree. That spike basically burns their gills, but inhumanity aside, it can also be a costly mistake. Like you said, patience is key.

    When I had my reef tank, I had a separate nursery tank I used that I put all my sand, live rock and shrimp into. The life that bloomed out of that alone was nuts. Feather dusters, copepods, bristle worms, etc. Then after that was good to go (about a month), I put the rock and everything into the main tank (my Biocube). THEN got corals established, and gave it like another month before adding fish. My clowns were stoked to have a perfect environment and host anemone to hang out in. Took forever, but I swear that's why I never experience a tank crash.

    When I got into freshwater (later ironically), I followed some of the same methodology and it was a piece of cake. My cichlid population lived for years, and got so big and healthy that I ended up turning a pretty big profit selling them BACK to the fish store when I had to move and take it all down. That was unexpected.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JongDoe View Post
    Salt water tanks are so cool and fresh water so boring. I'd have a salt water tank, but I've heard they are a lot of work and difficult to maintain. The local pizza place has a great salt water tank with some neat creatures, many that i see when diving or snorkeling. It seems very relaxing.
    Yeah, reef tanks are brilliant. Can be breathtaking. Their presence in a room ads a certain vibrancy.

    For a relaxing feel though, I think planted tanks are pretty cool. Image search Amano planted tank to get an idea.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=aman...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    These add a very calming relaxed feel to a room.

    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    I agree. That spike basically burns their gills, but inhumanity aside, it can also be a costly mistake. Like you said, patience is key.

    When I had my reef tank, I had a separate nursery tank I used that I put all my sand, live rock and shrimp into. The life that bloomed out of that alone was nuts. Feather dusters, copepods, bristle worms, etc. Then after that was good to go (about a month), I put the rock and everything into the main tank (my Biocube). THEN got corals established, and gave it like another month before adding fish. My clowns were stoked to have a perfect environment and host anemone to hang out in. Took forever, but I swear that's why I never experience a tank crash.

    When I got into freshwater (later ironically), I followed some of the same methodology and it was a piece of cake. My cichlid population lived for years, and got so big and healthy that I ended up turning a pretty big profit selling them BACK to the fish store when I had to move and take it all down. That was unexpected.
    Agreed. I had a reef tank for a few years and was considered lucky that as a first timer it never crashed. Ended up selling it off though, was too much hands on time for me.

  3. #78
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    This discussion is fascinating to me. But it also kind of triggers some stereotypes that I have as a result of a childhood experience.

    When I was a kid we had these neighbors across the highway that were super socially awkward. But, they adopted their nephew when I was in middle school. Living in the middle of nowhere, it was miles down the highway to my nearest friends house, so the neighbor kid was my only peer who I could hang out with without it being a big ordeal. So, I spent a lot of time with the neighbors. They were into breeding angelfish. They had this little out building that had both walls lined with tanks, floor to ceiling. They took a family trip to Vancouver BC to go to some angelfish breeders get together, and I tagged along because they were making a family vacation out of it, camping, going to some water slide park, etc. I remember thinking the angelfish get together looked like a normal old barbecue except the adults were all super weird and awkward. It's what you'd expect when you get a dozen people together who have completely obsessed about something super obscure. The rest of the trip was cool and I had a good time.

    Fast forward 10 years, I'm in college, my mom calls me and says, "remember that trip... nothing bad happened that you never told us about did it". No, nothing bad happened, I mean those neighbors were always super awkward socially but it was a good trip. mom: "you spent a lot of time over at their house playing with their son, nothing weird ever happened?" No, nothing inappropriate, I mean they were weird and there was always a strange vibe there... My mom says, "Ok, I just wanted to check, the neighbor dad ran off with some 16 year old "girlfriend" a few months back and was just arrested for molesting little boys". I wasn't surprised. While I never witnessed anything, and I can't point to any one incident that would have been a big enough redflag to intervene, I do think that as an adult, I would have been more in tune with the queues. Instead of thinking, "that was weird" and moving on, as an adult I would have thought, "that was weird", and then ask probing questions to find out what was going on.

    I get that raising fish in a tank can be really cool. It's like any craft, you have to learn a bunch about it to be successful and there's reward when you succeed. And the tropical fish are really beautiful. Seeing the fish in the big tank is the best part about taking the kids to the doctors office. But I just can't shake the association with keeping tropical fish in a tank and the creepy child molester neighbor.

  4. #79
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    Nice freaking tangent, buke!
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  5. #80
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    You never thought there was something fishy about that neighbor?
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  6. #81
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    Starter Fish Tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    Cycling with live stock is inhumane, no matter how you slice it. This hobby requires patience.
    I agree with this advice as being generally good advice that I follow but there are certain tanks, or, ways to slice it, that would never even need a cycle to keep the fish healthy. Granted, they will cycle anyway if there are fish but it’s not needed.

    I mean come on, you guys wanna hang out with uncle Chet on his pontoon boat or do you want to hang out with uncle Roman on a jet boat?!?!

    Modern technology has made it such that we don’t need to stare at an empty tank for 8 weeks, testing it every day.

    I like the kits with ammonia and bacteria. I’ve only used the bacteria but it would be nice to have had the ammonia to feed the colony and test with.


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  7. #82
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    Sounds like you got a great start and your boy is well on his way to a fun new hobby. Did you get him a reference book too? Yanno... he could turn this little adventure into a nice school project/report. Make learning science/chem/marine biology fun.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


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  8. #83
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    TLR. I had a 20-40 gallon freshwater aquarium for about 20 years or so. We got rid of of it 5 years ago when the kids came along. I picked up a Little 3~ Gallon Fluval Spec unit last year for the boy. He's 6, going on 14 and gets a kick out of it. FWIW, a unit this small takes minimal maintenance. Aside from feedings, I add water a couple of times a month and try and keep the algae at bay. It's nice to be able to talk frankly to the boy about death and the natural course of things, it's worth it for that alone.



    Last edited by YourMomJustCalled; 05-08-2021 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    20 gal simple starter tank with the upgraded Penguin filter and led lights that go from daylight to moonlight.

    The location I went to which was farther out has a killer cichlid and Oscar selection. Taking the kid to pick out what he wants on Sunday. He’s gonna flip. Lucked out and got the Rain Man of small tank setups while there and he took care of me with what fish work well for our water the setup and longevity.

    The canal/carp tank is next.
    Nice. I've got a 29 gallon community tank with a Seachem Tidal HOB.

    I found the Seachem Stability useful in jump starting the cycle on it.

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  10. #85
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    So I had really good luck dialing the water in right off the bat: de-chlorinated prior to adding, got the bacteria cycle started with some quick start, been monitoring the ph levels etc. and let it cycle for about 5 days before adding fish.

    All went well and didn't overload the system with the first few fish.

    Then we had a die-off overnight and it appears the ammonia levels shot up really quickly. Didn't transfer the fish store water, didn't overfeed and kept checking levels so not sure how it got so out of whack so quickly.

    Started over, did a 10% water change, and now it seems the ammonia every time I test it is still above 0, albeit low. For the past few days its been test, add ammonia remover, wait a few hours and add bacteria starter per the instructions. Still no luck getting it 100% eliminated.

    Obviously don't want to add any more fish until I get this figured out, but do any of you experts have any tips?
    I still call it The Jake.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    Cycling with live stock is inhumane, no matter how you slice it.
    NO COWS ON BICYCLES!

  12. #87
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    I slice my cows with a fine French piece of cutlery.
    I still call it The Jake.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    do any of you experts have any tips?
    Yeah - read the advice you were already offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    EDIT noticed you want to set this up quickly - learn and understand how to cycle your aquarium before adding any livestock, which takes roughly four weeks.

    https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/a...h-tank-cycling
    It takes weeks to complete the nitrogen cycle. Don't rely on water changes to chase your parameters around. Throw a bit of fish food in there so there's something breaking down. It will happen naturally. But expect it to takes at least 3 or 4 weeks.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    So I had really good luck dialing the water in right off the bat: de-chlorinated prior to adding, got the bacteria cycle started with some quick start, been monitoring the ph levels etc. and let it cycle for about 5 days before adding fish.

    All went well and didn't overload the system with the first few fish.

    Then we had a die-off overnight and it appears the ammonia levels shot up really quickly. Didn't transfer the fish store water, didn't overfeed and kept checking levels so not sure how it got so out of whack so quickly.

    Started over, did a 10% water change, and now it seems the ammonia every time I test it is still above 0, albeit low. For the past few days its been test, add ammonia remover, wait a few hours and add bacteria starter per the instructions. Still no luck getting it 100% eliminated.

    Obviously don't want to add any more fish until I get this figured out, but do any of you experts have any tips?
    I hate to say it, but the spikes are unavoidable. That's why I like complete the nitrification cycle well before adding fish. Give them a happy home to be introduced to. I've never used any kind of quick start liquid or ammonia reducers. It's my belief that sometimes going the patient, natural route can yield the best results. Sorry bout the die off man. That's frustrating.

    Also, what kind of fish did you get? Some are more finicky about the acclimation process than others, which I'm happy to walk you through what I like to do, but don't think that was the issue.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    Yeah - read the advice you were already offered.

    It takes weeks to complete the nitrogen cycle. Don't rely on water changes to chase your parameters around. Throw a bit of fish food in there so there's something breaking down. It will happen naturally. But expect it to takes at least 3 or 4 weeks.
    ^^^
    Yeah. Not to be a dick or anything, but yeah... this. Thalela's right. Re-read the thread. Will plug some good links in here later when I get a chance that can explain it better than I can.

  16. #91
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    If you detect ammonia you haven't completed the nitrate cycle.

    Also what sort of fish are you adding? Some are really sensitive to traces of ammonia so you need that dialed in well. You could plop a goldfish into a pub toilet bowl and it wouldn't die.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  17. #92
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    I'm a big proponent of starting with only 1 or 2 small fish in a 20ish gallon tank. You've gotta accumulate a colony of helpful bacteria and their growth is not a linear progression so it takes time. Killing fish sticks but not having any fish in there isn't a good strategy as it won't help to accelerate the process of stabilizing the water chemistry the way that having a super small bioload will.
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleia View Post
    Yeah - read the advice you were already offered.



    It takes weeks to complete the nitrogen cycle. Don't rely on water changes to chase your parameters around. Throw a bit of fish food in there so there's something breaking down. It will happen naturally. But expect it to takes at least 3 or 4 weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    I hate to say it, but the spikes are unavoidable. That's why I like complete the nitrification cycle well before adding fish. Give them a happy home to be introduced to. I've never used any kind of quick start liquid or ammonia reducers. It's my belief that sometimes going the patient, natural route can yield the best results. Sorry bout the die off man. That's frustrating.

    Also, what kind of fish did you get? Some are more finicky about the acclimation process than others, which I'm happy to walk you through what I like to do, but don't think that was the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    If you detect ammonia you haven't completed the nitrate cycle.

    Also what sort of fish are you adding? Some are really sensitive to traces of ammonia so you need that dialed in well. You could plop a goldfish into a pub toilet bowl and it wouldn't die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser View Post
    I'm a big proponent of starting with only 1 or 2 small fish in a 20ish gallon tank. You've gotta accumulate a colony of helpful bacteria and their growth is not a linear progression so it takes time. Killing fish sticks but not having any fish in there isn't a good strategy as it won't help to accelerate the process of stabilizing the water chemistry the way that having a super small bioload will.
    Thanks fellas, duly understood that I jumped the gun despite what I thought was evidence to the contrary.

    I added 4 rainbow tetras, figured they were hardy enough as I remembered from when I was a kid, and that it would help get the tank started.

    Clearly I was wrong.
    I still call it The Jake.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    I added 4 rainbow tetras, figured they were hardy enough as I remembered from when I was a kid, and that it would help get the tank started.
    Actually you're not wrong with what you remember. Rainbow tetras are actually pretty hardy little fish so not a bad choice really. What are you using for filtration? One of the things that's become really popular (at least back when I had my last few tanks) were these plastic "bioballs" and ceramic cylinders. LOTS of surface area for bacteria to grow on and thrive. In the salt tank, they went in the sump. In my fresh tank, my fancy Fluval canister filter had sections for them that was pretty rad. I think that helped with cultivating a balanced environment.

    Not that you have to go all hard core on expensive filtration, since I've seen people toss that stuff even in cheap hang on filters with good results.

    Also, what media are you using for the bottom? At least with the manufactured stuff like glass, before putting it in the tank to begin with, you have to rinse the bejeezus out of it to make sure all the bad stuff from manufacturing is gone. Either way, that's where a lot of the bacteria needs to build up too. Someone more knowledgeable than me can chime in, but perhaps that's another culprit. Either way, in regard to ammonia, the levels need to be ZERO. Any measurable level after the initial spike is bad juju.

  20. #95
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    Here's some good reading if you really wanna geek out on the chemistry like I used to:
    Aquarium Chemistry: The Nitrogen Cycle: New Developments and New Prospects
    https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-...new-prospects/

  21. #96
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    . . .

  22. #97
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    Thanks MF, I'll read that tonight.

    Using a Penguin HOB good for 80 gph.

    Gravel for the bottom, thoroughly rinsed prior to starting the tank
    I still call it The Jake.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Thanks MF, I'll read that tonight.

    Using a Penguin HOB good for 80 gph.

    Gravel for the bottom, thoroughly rinsed prior to starting the tank
    Yeah. You should be fine with that setup for some tetras and normal freshwater tropical fish then. If memory serves me correct, the Penguin HOBs had that "bio-wheel" which holds that bacteria you want and they're actually pretty good HOB setups. If it's like a 3-stage Penguin with the extra compartment for bio-media, then all the better. Either way, it just sounds like you need to give your water some more time to fully cycle. Patience is the key.

  24. #99
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    Ok experts, it’s been a few weeks and still no improvement on the ammonia. Daily testing shows me it’s very low ~<0.25 but still not 0.

    No water changes as suggested above other than to replace some minor evaporation. No livestock. Minuscule pinch of food dropped in a couple weeks ago to help. Bacteria starter added at recommended intervals and amounts.



    More patience? Seems cloudier now too for some reason but not too bad.
    I still call it The Jake.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Ok experts, it’s been a few weeks and still no improvement on the ammonia. Daily testing shows me it’s very low ~<0.25 but still not 0.

    No water changes as suggested above other than to replace some minor evaporation. No livestock. Minuscule pinch of food dropped in a couple weeks ago to help. Bacteria starter added at recommended intervals and amounts.

    More patience? Seems cloudier now too for some reason but not too bad.
    Sounds like there may not be enough bacteria in there to break down the ammonia. Perhaps they didn't have enough of a food source at the beginning and your bacteria population just might be too low. What is your water source? Chlorine in tap water can certainly kill off a bacteria colony if untreated. R/O is usually best IMO.

    If you have a buddy with a tank or a good pet store, they can maybe hook you up with some media out of their tank filters to seed yours. Then those bacteria need something to eat, and I don't think the "Minuscule pinch of food" was near enough to cut it. The bacteria starter you used probably ultimately starved, although I'm sure you have SOME lingering in there, so hopefully all is not lost. I've seen people put dead prawns or shrimp in a mesh bag. Personally, I've used live ghost shrimp. Either way, I think you need to jump start the process all over again, but you can't let it stop (ie starvation) this time. That said, go ahead and do some daily water changes to clear up your water, get your levels down and start again. Will likely be MUCH faster this time if there's still some bacteria in there or you get hooked up from a donor tank.

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