Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 95
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    208 State
    Posts
    2,356

    Safer Ski Areas for safer people?

    Or is it "safer ski areas for stupider people"

    WTF kind of legislation is this? I for one am happy this kind of bill died.

    https://coloradosun.com/2021/04/15/c...talities-bill/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,988
    “Senate Bill 184 is a good start to help make the Colorado ski industry a world leader in attracting skiers and riders,” Fisher said.
    should someone tell him they already are?
    you don't want no smoke.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,685
    I can see how it could be potentially helpful, but I can also see how it would end up being simply a bureaucratic morass. And I think the latter case is more probable.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,183
    Why one specific industry is allowed to not disclose injuries to the public on public lands disgusts me.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    17,489
    As opposed to business required to report injuries to employees and hospitals required to report injuries to patients, ski resorts operate an inherently dangerous business where the vast majority of injuries of deaths are caused by the lack of skill of the victim or of other skiers, factors the resort has little control over. I can't see how reporting how many people broke their leg, tore their ACL, or died after skiing into a tree will make skiing any safer or help me decide where to ski.

    Besides hospitals, most industries don't report injuries to the public. Recalls of consumer products are driven by injuries and deaths reported to the CPSC, not self reported statistics reported by manufacturers. Drug and vaccine injuries are similarly reported, usually by the injured party's provider, to the FDA or VAERS, not by systematic monitoring and reporting by pharma. (It would be nice if that weren't the case by pharma has no way to identify every person who receives their products once they are out of trials.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    208 State
    Posts
    2,356
    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    .... but I can also see how it would end up being simply a bureaucratic morass
    Besides the reporting of deaths and injuries I'm curious what the group lobbying this bill has in store to make this trend decrease? Putting up more slow skiing signs and yellow jackets or should we just pad all the trees in the forest, line each run with nets "just in case", and have gondolas instead of chairlifts so people don't fall off chairs? Or is this group just lobbying to make noise and solve nothing.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,685
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnjam View Post
    Besides the reporting of deaths and injuries I'm curious what the group lobbying this bill has in store to make this trend decrease? Putting up more slow skiing signs and yellow jackets or should we just pad all the trees in the forest, line each run with nets "just in case", and have gondolas instead of chairlifts so people don't fall off chairs? Or is this group just lobbying to make noise and solve nothing.
    I think the idea would be to make ski areas publicly accountable. "That which is measured improves." But, yes, in practice all it might achieve is for ski areas to be more cautious: less open terrain, etc.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Spokane/Schweitzer
    Posts
    6,408
    I would guess this is being pushed by some lawyers who are looking for a ski area to not be working their published safety plan with an eye toward the injured or deceased. As it stands, they really don't have much room to stand on with suits against ski areas as skiing is an inherently individual act where the skier assumes the risk. If there is a safety plan and the area, for whatever reason doesn't adhere on a specific point, it would at least give the attorneys something to argue when they try to sue the area. Always looking for an angle...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    50 miles E of Paradise
    Posts
    11,253
    CO Sun’s site is down but it looks like the bill did not get through committee.

    Which IMO is a good thing
    Check Out Ullr's Mobile Avalanche Safety Tools for iOS and Android
    www.ullrlabs.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    The Shed of Incorruptible Veracity
    Posts
    8,146
    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Why one specific industry is allowed to not disclose injuries to the public on public lands disgusts me.

    This. It's a damn shame that bill died in committee.

    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    I think the idea would be to make ski areas publicly accountable. "That which is measured improves." But, yes, in practice all it might achieve is for ski areas to be more cautious: less open terrain, etc.
    This is a straw man argument when you realize that the majority of ski-related injuries and fatalities happen on beginner and intermediate ski runs.
    Relentlessly pursuing beauty in an irredeemably ugly world.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Flavor Country
    Posts
    2,751
    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Why one specific industry is allowed to not disclose injuries to the public on public lands disgusts me.
    I'm not aware that other industries operating on public lands have to report injuries, so I'm not sure it is this one industry. My company operates under forest service leases on public land and we aren't required to report every time someone burns themselves on a stove at a hut or they twist their ankle on the trail in; I'm pretty sure guiding companies aren't required to report those stats either. I understand that ski resorts are quite different and accountability is always nice, but as old goat pointed out there is a lot more that often goes into these injuries or accidents, like user error sometimes, that makes these stats less useful than we might think.
    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    17,489
    There was an idea a while back to put netting along the sides of all the groomers to keep people from going into the trees. Obviously that died.

    If someone is for mandatory reporting of all ski injuries on public (or private) land, they need to explain how it would actually help, besides being a way to stick it to the ski resorts.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Missoula DMV
    Posts
    1,131
    Ctrl+V language from the bill itself

    BILL SUMMARY

    The bill updates the "Ski Safety Act of 1979" by:

    1) Requiring each ski area to adopt and publish, in printed form and on the ski area's website, if any, a safety plan specifying the governance, management, and operational roles, responsibilities, and practices of the ski area to prevent accidents and reduce the frequency and severity of injuries; and

    2) Requiring ski areas with an elevation drop of 500 feet or more and at least one elevated lift to:

    2a) Collect and disseminate seasonal data on ski and snowboard accidents and deaths, including those occurring while boarding or exiting lifts; and

    2b) Collect and make available, upon request, specific information about each accident, including where and when it occurred, the conditions at the time, the type of injuries and whether death occurred on site or following medical transport, and specified nonprivate information about the injured person.


    The bill makes any failure to create, maintain, and publish a safety plan or provide the required reports or data grounds for discipline by the passenger tramway safety board.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post

    This is a straw man argument when you realize that the majority of ski-related injuries and fatalities happen on beginner and intermediate ski runs.
    What are you basing this on? NSAA data shows the opposite on its fatality report... https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Publi...et_2020-21.pdf

    Not a straw man argument at all. The economic and political pressures this would involve are pretty straightforward. I think it's very likely that public reporting of fatality data would result in the closure of more dangerous zones. That would be great for reducing the ability of weekenders to get in over their heads but horrible for the progression of the sport by informed, experienced skiers and riders who understand the risks they are choosing to take.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Before
    Posts
    23,660
    Who are these "safer people".
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wenatchee
    Posts
    9,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Who are these "safer people".
    The Mormons?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by manchild View Post
    What are you basing this on? NSAA data shows the opposite on its fatality report... https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Publi...et_2020-21.pdf

    Not a straw man argument at all. The economic and political pressures this would involve are pretty straightforward. I think it's very likely that public reporting of fatality data would result in the closure of more dangerous zones. That would be great for reducing the ability of weekenders to get in over their heads but horrible for the progression of the sport by informed, experienced skiers and riders who understand the risks they are choosing to take.

    Nope. The NSAA reports most fatalities are on intermediate or advanced runs...so anything not a green run. Pretty worthless stat.

    Read through some older nsaa reports and it should become clear that this is to obfuscate the fact that fatalities...”are going at high rates of speed on the margins of intermediate trails”.

    Quote from the ‘9/10 nsaa fatality report. Also fun to note the change in collision statistics since then. Lastly...these reports have very few real stats. Maybe if they did we could make skiing safer?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,183
    Maybe I'm just a humanist, but if you pay for a massive monopoly to use hudge swaths of public lands, you should be reporting your incident reports. To violently come out against that is showing a sick sick card. If we can see patterns and have any way to minimize them, especially through education, then why not? Otherwise, it's a missed opportunity, not a closed run, honestly. Why shouldn't there be transparency? Argue against that, because the lobby groups against this bill were absurd in their arguments.

    And, let it be known, I duck ropes, ski fast, and take chances. I don't have a play in this fight.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    131
    I'm very interested to know what ideas these people have in their minds to make things "safer". Who has made the determination that it needs to be safer, no disrespect to those who have been injured or lost their lives.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    17,489
    Quote Originally Posted by unclebill View Post
    I'm very interested to know what ideas these people have in their minds to make things "safer". Who has made the determination that it needs to be safer, no disrespect to those who have been injured or lost their lives.
    Agreed.
    I've been hurt 3 times--skied into a mogul under powder and tore meniscus, had a prelease in heavy pow and dislocated shoulder, had a tumbling fall on ice on a big powder day--the upper part of the very steep run had slid down to ice. I was at fault in all of the incidents, not the resort. Nothing the area could have done short of closing the run, but it was well marked as expert, other people skied it safely.
    Education? A mandatory skier safety class before being issued a certificate that allows you to ski, maybe the skiing version of "Red Asphalt". How much does driver ed and gory movies help prevent traffic deaths? Where I ski potential hazards like cliffs, expert runs, difficult conditions, and manmade obstructions are very well marked. Slow signs abound, patrollers flag down people skiing too fast in congested zones--too my shame I've only been flagged once, and it was at Northstar so it doesn't count.

    Speaking of Northstar--very aggressive effort at speed control, a sign in the gondola loading area about how many passes have been pulled--but the word among patrollers is--if you like loading sleds, work at Northstar, if you like throwing bombs Squaw is a better bet.
    For those who are interested in making skiing safer I suppose they could run their own safety courses.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    13,714
    Throwing bombs at squaw can be deadly
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    12,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Who are these "safer people".

    present and counting for 417, 418, 419.........
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    208 State
    Posts
    2,356
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Who are these "safer people".
    The same people that use trails in the summer and complain about rocks, roots and other obstacles on said mountain terrain trail. Sure, we'll just go ahead and pave it so you don't trip.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Keep Tacoma Feared
    Posts
    2,079
    It’s time for transparency at Colorado ski resorts. Summit Daily News built a database a few years ago using coroners’ records obtained through the Colorado Open Records Act.

    https://www.summitdaily.com/opinion/...o-ski-resorts/

    https://www.summitdaily.com/news/skier-deaths

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Spokane/Schweitzer
    Posts
    6,408
    Pardon my cynicism but this reads like a playbook out of a personal injury attorney's wish list.

    BILL SUMMARY

    The bill updates the "Ski Safety Act of 1979" by:


    1) Requiring each ski area to adopt and publish, in printed form and on the ski area's website, if any, a safety plan specifying the governance, management, and operational roles, responsibilities, and practices of the ski area to prevent accidents and reduce the frequency and severity of injuries; and


    2) Requiring ski areas with an elevation drop of 500 feet or more and at least one elevated lift to:


    2a) Collect and disseminate seasonal data on ski and snowboard accidents and deaths, including those occurring while boarding or exiting lifts; and


    2b) Collect and make available, upon request, specific information about each accident, including where and when it occurred, the conditions at the time, the type of injuries and whether death occurred on site or following medical transport, and specified nonprivate information about the injured person.




    The bill makes any failure to create, maintain, and publish a safety plan or provide the required reports or data grounds for discipline by the passenger tramway safety board.
    Find the injured parties with as much background information you can determine from the area's reporting. Find the easily accessible safety plan and start looking for the cracks around the edges you can exploit. File suit against said area. Win lots of money for client (and self).

    Merely being forced into compliance will raise the areas' insurance rates substantially as the insurers will be guarding against inevitable lawsuits that change the dynamic of "ski at your own risk". Now the risk will be shifted to the ski areas by large margins. Let's just agree to paying one hell of a lot more to ski or quit skiing altogether. This is all so counter-intuitive to me.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •