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Thread: I Hate Using Credit Cards
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04-14-2021, 08:36 PM #76
The merchant never actually sees or touches the CC data. You (and the merchant) may see the card brand, last 4 and the exp date for reference. The token that is issued is specific to the card, merchant and the processor - there's no cross over.
Basically -> that site where you are entering this data - it looks like it's on the merchant website but it's often a hosted solution w/ the processor (there are API variations of this theme). Once you do all that - the integration between the merchant's site/point of sale - has a hand shake that says: all done, here's this person's token. To the end user, it looks like Backcountry. com or whatnot has stored your CC data, but it hasn't - 100% w/ the processor.
Further, to be in-scope PCI compliant/regulated is expensive and managing PAN data directly brings liability. Processors offer this type of solution to merchants - at a cost.
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04-14-2021, 09:15 PM #77Registered User
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I logged into Amazon to see what you are saying, you are right. I believe somewhat recently it wasn’t always this way with the local utility companies I used, I could edit and see all my CC info.
Then again, don’t hold me to a faint past memory. Thanks for the info.
So how do CC hacks happen so often?
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04-14-2021, 09:17 PM #78
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04-14-2021, 09:30 PM #79
https://twitter.com/fold_app?s=09
First ever BTC rewards card. Crushing it so hard with it the last few months it's been silly. Get the premium, pays for itself fast.
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04-14-2021, 09:33 PM #80
Without getting too detailed, there are vulnerabilities along the entire transaction & issuing chain. Skimming. Carelessness. Sniffing. At some point, data needs to move - be it from your physical card all the way to the card issuer who is authorizing the transaction. Even in End to End encryption - there are edges of vulnerability. Smart crafty people are looking for opportunities to exploit.
That said, I personally use credit cards without a care in the world. To be blunt, the card holder ain't on the hook for diddly squat. Credit transactions offer the most protections. I know some people here mentioned debit and ach but, imho, that's a bit different: you need to convince a bank to return funds into your account after they've been removed vs. contesting a fraudulent charge that you've never fronted $ for. They are governed and regulated differently in terms of consumer protection.Last edited by Carl_Mega; 04-14-2021 at 10:04 PM.
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04-14-2021, 10:29 PM #81
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04-14-2021, 10:40 PM #82
It’s been at least 3 years that I carry nothing but my phone, cc, and license, and pay almost everything w/ my watch. I love it.
Well maybe I'm the faggot America
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda
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04-14-2021, 10:52 PM #83
I totally understand not juggling cards because of the hassle to incremental benefit ratio. But what does that 800+ score get you? How much do you think juggling cards drops your score? And what will be the practical difference of that drop?
I juggle cards, don't churn a lot but do it some, have 5 cards in my wallet, and have great credit. What more do you think you get, and on what, by having 800+ credit vs my 780-790 credit?"fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
"She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
"everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy
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04-14-2021, 11:06 PM #84
Yeah, "juggling" cards is not going to affect your credit much in the long run. Maybe 1-3mo dips when you close a card, but always try to open a new one at the same time and re-up that available credit. If you're really churning, you may see more consistent drops, but still nothing that should change your personal or financial reality. FWIW - we've been churning on and off for 15years, both sitting pretty at 820.
TGapp - normal Freedom, Citi Double cash or AMEX Blue Cash Pref for an everyday card. I use AMEX Blue for grocery/gas, Freedom for most other normal charges. We've leveraged Chase+United pts for our travel for a long time, so I'll take a baseline 1.5pts vs 2pts from other cards as the Chase UR is more valuable than cash to me.
Sapphire Pref/Reserve have fallen off in value since the first 5yrs. Still a good card if you pay for travel, will use lounges and live in a city to utilize other benefits. We had Sapphire Pref for years, but hopping the 5/24 and waiting 2yrs to hopefully get a signup bonus wasn't worth it for the time being. Amex Gold was a good card that worked in our favor with high-end card benefits as well as travel credit, waived remaining annual fee and some decent amex offers.
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04-14-2021, 11:45 PM #85
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04-15-2021, 01:35 AM #86
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04-15-2021, 04:21 AM #87I drink it up
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Not all merchants and utilities are PCI compliant. Shocker, I know, but certain parts of the industry are pretty lax and some merchants do retain card info on their systems. That remains the primary vector for card compromises.
In any event, I don’t spend too much time worrying about fraud either for the same reason. Keep in mind that you’re only not liable for fraud you catch and there is a liability window wherein ongoing fraud eventually shifts back to the cardholder, so keep an eye on your statements.
Small quibble re: debit card transactions processed on a signature network: the rules are exactly the same. How you cash flow can be an issue (and one of your own making, IMO), but to the issuing bank it makes absolutely no difference whether fraud happens with a debit card or a credit card. They’re usually on the hook for it and crediting your account comes directly out of their bottom line, debit or credit. Bigger issuers can be better at handling it because they’ve been there, done that and they’re a bigger target for the CFPB and others, but that doesn’t mean smaller issuers can’t also take good care of you. The rules are the same, they’ll just take it a little more personally if the $300 comes out of their net income. Which... I don’t think this has been said, this liability profile is what interchange income is FOR. Take away the incentive and assuming the liability no longer makes sense.
ACH rules are quite a bit different (though regulations are in many cases identical), but if anything is going to be easier because the liability profile is different and your bank isn’t on the hook for it (if it’s identified timely). They have no reason not to take care of it right away.Last edited by Mustonen; 04-15-2021 at 04:42 AM.
focus.
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04-15-2021, 05:41 AM #88I drink it up
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The network doesn’t know the purchaser’s credit score. AmEx and Discover (who are both the issuer and the network) might, but...that’s not a thing. The card type (which could be partially determined on credit score, depending on the issuer, albeit indirectly) does have an impact on your fees, though.
I get that you’re butthurt as a merchant who has to pay fees that feel like a shakedown, but you’re a little off base in your ranting.
Rewards are pretty cynical, generally. Most systems are predicated on a redemption rate of only 30 to 45%. It means the rewards can be richer for those who engage and pay attention and increases profit margins for the issuing bank, which... that’s not a super high margin industry. They’ll fund their operation one way or the other.
This was readily apparent when debit card interchange rates were capped a decade or so ago. You still have to pay for the system, and other fees were increased almost immediately to compensate. Nobody “lost.” Such a weird way to look at it.... Do you really want it to be cheaper? Shift fraud liability back to the merchant.
I don’t understand why you key in on not earning rewards on your rewards, but that’s pretty standard and you’d be silly to design the system differently. You’re so mad at the game that you’re playing, one wonders why you play it....
No rule says you can’t write your PIN on the back of your card. You still aren’t liable if it’s stolen as long as you report it timely, outside of that first $50 if the issuer wants to stick it to you. Which...they should, if you do that kind of thing.focus.
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04-15-2021, 06:37 AM #89
thanks, this is very helpful. neither of us travel a ton, we don't use door dash or Uber much (and when we do, work foots the bill). Probably gonna have her get an AMEX blue and I'll get a a Freedom or Double cash. we both have excellent credit, blah blah blah, we just don't have the intellectual saavy/emotional energy to worry about whatever the flavor of the month is. props to those who do; our strategy for the past few years has been to put everything on the REI card and then get big ticket items during dividend season. now that the gear room is overflowing (coming soon to season 7 of Buried Alive), we wanna mature our strategy a bit.
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04-15-2021, 07:00 AM #90
Not juggling cards because you can't deal with that seems totally normal and not stupid to me. But getting a good basic rewards card like the double cash one and just using that, ie not juggling but the card you use is a good rewards card, is a total no brainer though. Doesn't make you an idiot for not doing it, but it's most certainly a financial mistake.
If you use the CC for everything, it's easy to get a few hundred in cash back every year. With no juggling."fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
"She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
"everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy
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04-15-2021, 07:14 AM #91
The Amex Centurion Black is the only card I carry.
"timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang
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04-15-2021, 07:29 AM #92Registered User
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04-15-2021, 08:17 AM #93
I knew from your other posts that you are in the industry as well. I've dumbed it down enough to be useful for the mags. There are PCI DSS levels as one dimension. There's the type of processing and arrangements with your vendors and processor - the self-assessment questions give more insight into that: https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org...elf_assessment
But, in my modern day experience, your run of the day merchants or their self-hosted Point of Sale storing PAN data (for a card on file solution in lieu of a tokenization product) is an exception and certainly brings them in-scope. Thus unreasonable liability. There are some areas that are wild west and isos, payfacs that may take your shady business - heh. To add: I do not store my personal cards - various reasons.
That said, I think you are wrong on the Credit vs. Debit protections (tho admittedly this is not what I do):
https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-e...n-debit-cards/
"The law governing debit cards, though, is not quite so powerful. If a person used your debit card without your knowledge or authorization, your liability is protected by the Electronic Funds Transfer Act, which gives you the right to challenge fraudulent transactions. But you'd better act fast. As long as you alert the bank that your card was stolen or compromised before someone uses it, you won't be liable for any of the future transactions. Wait two business days after the fraud and you might have to pay up to $50. Miss that deadline and wait 60 days, and your liability increases to $500. Let 60 days pass and your liability is unlimited, which means all your money in the account that was taken might be lost for good."
Edit: you've really got me into a rabbit hole trying to see if Signature Debit (debit processed like credit for you mags) actually has different gov't protections or if the issuers/processors are just managing fraud and disputes similar - vs. those on Pin Debit. My googling is still showing the protections are treated as debit so if you have something that details the government consumer protections that'd help me.Last edited by Carl_Mega; 04-15-2021 at 09:47 AM.
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04-15-2021, 08:32 AM #94
Over $700/yr from my Costco Citi the last few years. Zero juggling. Though, I am now pondering getting that Citi double cash card. Use the Costco card for gas, travel, restaurants and Costco purchases, and the Dub for everything else. No extra hassle making payments since it's all Citi still.
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04-15-2021, 08:41 AM #95
You keep mentioning 3-5%
Is this what merchants add to the cost of goods, or is this the CC processing fee?
If you're a merchant and you're paying over 2% for CC processing, you're paying too much
I first started taking CC's in 1995 and the processing fee was 2.3 to 3.4%
When I sold the property in 2019 NOVA thru Costco was charging 1.6 to 2.3%
1.6 for basic CC
1.85 for a rewards card
2.3 for a business card
Debits were the best, only a swipe and a interchange fee
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04-15-2021, 08:53 AM #96I drink it up
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Merchant facing PCI compliance isn’t what I do. But fraud/disputes is in my area....
First, if you process your transaction over the VISA or MasterCard rails your fraud protection is governed by VISA and MC rules, which offer more protections than either (extremely consumer friendly) regulation and applies pretty equally to debit or credit transactions (some small equivocation because purchase protection and other insurance-ey protections ARE different, but are so far out in the margins that it rarely comes up).
Second, if you process your transaction over PIN network rails then your fraud protection is indeed governed by Reg E, which is different and confusing and you should just sign for your purchases, OK? That said:
1. If your FI makes you pay the $50 they’re assholes.
2. The clock starts ticking when you learn of the fraud, not when the fraud occurs.
3. The 60 day window is so widely misunderstood by the industry as to be farcical. There are a couple timelines in play. The first covers provisional credit and the FI’s obligation to conduct a speedy investigation as long as notification happens within 60 days of learning of the fraud. The second covers ultimate liability.
4. Liability falls within a 60 day window, but doesn’t mean what most people (including your experian blogger and many financial institutions) think it means. Essentially, you are protected with a 60 day fraud window. If a large fraudulent transaction happened last year, and you just learned of it now, you are liable for: (1) up to $50 if you notified within 2 days of learning about it, and up to $500 if you notified your FI after that 2 days and (2) any fraudulent transactions that happen 60 days after the first fraudulent transaction.
Really, they should have made one of the timelines 65 days or something just so people could learn to keep them straight.focus.
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04-15-2021, 09:07 AM #97
Totally. The space is huge and most of us occupy just one part of it - ex. me and merchant acquiring and all of its tentacles.
Anyway - thanks for that. If you don't mind, me doing a tldr for the mags here: if you have a debit card with a cardbrand on it -> signing for your transaction will run it like credit and, for all intents and purposes, give you better institutional fraud protection.
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04-15-2021, 09:07 AM #98
Yeah, I was being conservative with the "few hundred", I juggle and I think I am getting close to if not more than a grand back every year. I mostly do what you describe with Costco/Double Cash, but I also have 2 cards with rotating categories (Discover and US Bank Cash Plus) and get 5% back on those purchases. It isn't hard for me to do but I totally get that it might be too annoying for some. About the only things I can't pay for with cards are my mortgage and insurance, everything else goes on a card. My power utility charges a fee to use a card, but the fee is more than made up for by the 5% I get back for using the card.
"fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
"She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
"everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy
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04-15-2021, 09:09 AM #99I drink it up
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This is governed by network rules and policy. Government consumer protections are, indeed, different. For most consumers in most situations, the difference should be negligible if discernible at all.
ETA: Right, if you process the transaction over VISA or MC then you’re covered by their network rules. Not quite the rule of law, but doesn’t make much difference at a cardholder level (and in practice is superior, IMO. Read notes above about industry misunderstandings about Reg E as exhibit A). Note that some PIN networks have similar protections in place. Good luck reading the fine print to figure it all out, though (I never bothered), or figuring out which PIN network your transaction was or better yet, will be, processed over.
EETA: Reg E is always an ultimate fallback for electronic transactions, period, regardless of card type (generally). Timelines and dispute rules may differ when you’re relying on VISA or MC network rules. It gets so far into the weeds that most will simply set policy around it that manages to regulation AND network rules so they don’t have to descend into the rabbit hole every time it comes up.focus.
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04-15-2021, 09:31 AM #100
With regards to your REI strategy: Amex Blue, for better or worse, doesn't give you rolling cash back payments. It deposits the cashback much the same as pts/miles on other cards as an accrued balance. You have to login and choose to have them credited on your next statement, paid as gift cards, sent as a check etc. You could choose to build them up and then cash out every 6-12mo if you want a pseudo-bonus for certain purchases.
Either way, a non-specific rewards card is likely healthier than the REI honeypot, which gets 1% on all purchases while being chained to buying at REI. From my 20yrs as an REI member, that likely means overpaying with "free" money for gear you may/may not need vs buying on GS, other online sales, etc.
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