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Thread: Wildfire 2021
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10-16-2021, 10:07 AM #1026
I don't know the forests of Washington, where you are, but I know that the forests of California are not Bavaria. The climax forests of the Sierra Nevada are widely spaced big trees with a shaded forest floor with little in the way of undergrowth--and what undergrowth there is burns off every 10-15 years. Most of the wildlife habitat is along rivers and streams and in meadows. There also used to be grasses that stayed green all summer--those were long ago replaced by grasses brought by white settlers which dry up and burn in the summer.
We have German friends--she is American married to a German, whose family has a house near us at Donner. The live in southern Germany, along the Rhine, and she advocates in her village for people to let their lawns turn back into native vegetation in order to support wildlife. Which is fine in southern Germany, but she refuses to allow proper defensible space work to be done on her family's property here--it's overgrown with brush and small skinny closely packed trees.
I think you know better, but I think you're starting to enjoy trolling.
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10-16-2021, 10:27 AM #1027
From that sacbee article:
Knapp, a U.S. Forest Service research ecologist, is a co-author of several studies highlighting the benefits of more aggressive fire fuels management. “To me, it just really illustrates that if you change the fuels,” Knapp said, “you change the fire behavior.”
Read more at: https://www.sacbee.com/news/californ...#storylink=cpy
The reading I’ve done indicates studies either conclude a mild biodiversity benefit from entering this cycle, or no distinct benefit or disadvantage vs letting shit just grow down low.
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10-16-2021, 11:42 AM #1028sick, spiteful, bad liver
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It kind of depends on your forest, your elevation, the slope and aspect, and whether you're on the east side or the west side. And of course the history of fire and fire suppression for whatever forest you're in. It's as risky for you to judge California forests based on your back yard as it is for German woman to judge from Bavaria.
Someone posted above a photo of the post-fire ecosystem around Whiskeytown, showing all the burned-over Manzanitas. Having spent a month hiking all over that forest, bushwhacking through the dead manzanitas and comparing the state of the forest to its past 30 years (in terms of visibility of archaeological resources), it was quickly clear that the fire had done a great job of thinning undergrowth on a massive scale . . . but those manzanita were already sprouting and prospering and eager to replace the lost ones, in amongst the remaining big trees.
I've seen all kinds of efforts at stopping that cycle all over the western sierra, especially the early macerators which were just big lawnmower blades on the fronts of log skidders, and nothing I've seen has survived more than a few years before returning to the original state.
It seems to be like the cycle of fire brought on by the cheatgrass epidemic in Nevada and Colorado, where the fire that clears the fuel also reseeds it and makes it come back stronger before setting off another self-perpetuating fire.
Which is a long way to say experts who know more than most of us will continue to argue ideal scenarios far into the future as the forests continue to become what they will despite best and worst efforts on either side . . .
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10-16-2021, 11:44 AM #1029
altasnob is either so seriously challenged/ignorant about forest conditions and management that he should be ignored, or he’s trolling and should be ignored.
Thanks for that article link bodywhomper. Good stuff.
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10-16-2021, 12:03 PM #1030
It's pretty obvious that forest management for wildfire mitigation is not and never will be one and done. It will require repeated cycles of thinning and natural and prescribed burning, especially until the remaining trees have gotten big enough to withstand moderate intensity fire.
Given the long term effects of climate change I think it is quite likely that much of the forests destroyed by our recent high intensity fires will never be forest again.
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10-16-2021, 12:57 PM #1031
Thanks for posting that piece. And I agree that NEPA has been weaponized. No matter what is proposed for public lands, there’s always a group of PAVErs (People Against Virtually Everything) ready to block it. Lawsuits are cheap to file, suck up already-skinny BLM/USFS budgets and bring everything to a halt for years
The thing that struck me in that article was the enviro focus on spotted owl habitat. Northern spotted owl populations are declining as much due to barred owl predation and climate change as due to human influence. But the PAVErs are happy to trot out the threatened spotted owl when it suits their purpose.
And then while gumming the works, the land being fought over gets burned hard and habitat is gone anyway. Brilliant!
I know right? We always referred to it as “pre-commercial thinning” because the idea was to take the runts that were taking light from the bigger stems, and wouldn’t likely be worth it to take out of the woods when the stand was mature.
And agreed on the likely need for mechanical work before burning that stand.
Which as an aside there are places in the B&B Fire scar where the lodgepole is so thick you can’t walk thru it.
Not much that I’ve seen. Not sure why, I know squat about wildflowers
It’s good mushroom hunting though. And fiddleheads for salads…
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10-16-2021, 10:23 PM #1032
So I am reading through that SacBee article and the linked studies, and UW ecologist Susan Prichard likens Hanson to a climate change denier. But then when you click on Prichard's own published study, she cites two Hanson studies in her paper.
One thing that article is correct on, everyone has an agenda. Oh, and besides Prichard, most of the other people who collaborated with her on the study are Forest Service employees, so it's not too surprising they don't have kind things to say about Hanson (who is suing them). The other UW scientist mentioned in that paper, Keala Hagmann, also works with Prichard (and the Forest Service).
If you are curious, the two Hanson studies Prichard cites are:
Baker, W. L., and C. T. Hanson. 2017. Improving the use of early timber inventories in reconstructing historical dry forests and fire in the western United States. Ecosphere 8:e01935
Hanson, C. T., and D. C. Odion. 2014. Is fire severity increasing in the Sierra Nevada, California, USA? International Journal of Wildland Fire 23:1–8.Last edited by altasnob; 10-16-2021 at 11:41 PM.
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10-16-2021, 11:09 PM #1033
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10-19-2021, 11:43 PM #1034
Wildfire 2021
I think it is safe to say the fire season in Northern California is over / about to be. We really dodged a bullet this year getting early rains and no really bad wind events.
“
Liquid precipitation estimates at this time for the period
12z Sat through 00z Tue equate to about 1 to 4 inches in the
Central Valley with 3 to 7 inches in the foothills and mountains.
Snow levels remain above pass levels over the weekend, lowering
to around 5000 to 6000 feet Mon/Tue. There is the potential for
several feet of snow over higher mountain terrain by early next
week. This has the potential for significant travel problems,
especially at Sierra pass levels.”
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
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10-20-2021, 04:50 PM #1035
See How the Dixie Fire Created Its Own Weather
This year’s largest blaze generated powerful storm clouds. We show you in 3-D.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-weather.html
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10-20-2021, 06:20 PM #1036
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10-20-2021, 06:45 PM #1037
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10-20-2021, 11:11 PM #1038
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10-21-2021, 06:08 PM #1039
Hansen bashing has been heavy in the mainstream press lately. I just wish they wouldn't label him and his pals as "environmentalists".
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10-21-2021, 09:33 PM #1040
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10-23-2021, 06:19 PM #1041
A really good, if long, article on some of the people on a federal hotshot crew. Glad I’m retired.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...ting-hotshots/
Let me know if it’s paywalled.
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10-24-2021, 10:02 AM #1042one of those sickos
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That was a great article; thanks for posting it.
ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.
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10-24-2021, 10:11 AM #1043
Yeah, thanks MS. I didn't quite realize what I was sitting down for when I glanced at my phone and started to read the first few paragraphs. It was well worth it.
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10-24-2021, 10:54 AM #1044
A great line from that article:
Arguably the worst part of the job for a firefighter is working in thick smoke for long stretches. "It's hard to see the long-term hazards," says Kathleen Navarro, a former hotshot and a research industrial hygienist for the CDC who has studied the effects of smoke inhalation on wildland firefighters, "when you're faced with things that are going to kill you immediately out on the fire line."
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11-08-2021, 08:02 AM #1045______
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Game changing pay raise, wildland firefighter job classification and what looks like over $2 billion in fuels management and WUI money.
“ Now federal wildland firefighters will receive pay increases of $20,000 a year, or an amount equal to 50 percent of the base salary — the lesser of the two. For example, a GS-3 rookie firefighter that would make $28,078 if they were to work all year, will earn an additional $14,039 for a total of $42,117. A GS-9 making $54,433 will get an increase of $20,000 bringing the base salary to $74,433.”
https://wildfiretoday.com/2021/11/06...wildland-fire/
“$20M, Satellite fire detection
$10M, Radio interoperability
$30M, Reverse 911 systems
$50M, Slip-on firefighting modules for pickup trucks
$100M, Pre-fire planning, and training personnel for wildland firefighting and vegetation treatments
$20M, Data management for fuels projects and large fires
$20M, Joint Fire Science Program (research)
$100M, Planning & implementing projects under the Collaborative Forest Landscape Restoration Program
$500M, Mechanical thinning, timber harvesting, pre-commercial thinning
$500M, Wildfire defense grants for at risk communities
$500M, Prescribed fires
$500M, Constructing fuelbreaks
$200M, Remove fuels, produce biochar and other innovative wood products
$200M, Post-fire restoration
$8M, Firewood banks
$10M, Wildfire detection and real-time monitoring equipment“
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11-08-2021, 09:24 AM #1046
recently renewed my friendship with one my old paramedic buddies. he's now retired firemedic but does crew boss on the wildfire line. has some interesting action adventure tales. here he is getting in a bucket list hike after the bomb cyclone closed down the fire line. he also administers the ALS/paramedic program at A-Basin and is great guy.
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11-08-2021, 11:39 AM #1047
An op-ed piece from a firefighter in norcal who is not pleased with the USFS.
I am posting without an opinion yea or nay.
https://www.moonshineink.com/opinion...ce-ineptitude/
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11-08-2021, 11:51 AM #1048
Of all the natural disasters that could strike.. a wildfire is probably the one that terrifies me most. A flood you might be able to swim.. Tornado you can at least try to shelter low and strongest part of your place.. A fire you're just totally screwed. Best I can hope for is to suffocate before I burn.
Don't know shit about the particulars. But I do have a cousin in northern cal who's a fire fighter rotating in and out of crews there when shit gets real.. His immediate family spends a lot of time worrying and the remainder praising his bravery and selfless sacrifice to protect the communities where he gets sent. Big props to those crews..Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!
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11-08-2021, 12:07 PM #1049______
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Reminds me of the letters to the editor by the local looney tunes, anti-government crazies we would see. Didn’t matter what was actually happen, they always had the inside scoop and knew the “truth”.
I’d at least maybe think harder about whether any of it was real or not if this “firefighter” actually used their name or presented something resembling a factual account.
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11-08-2021, 01:37 PM #1050
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