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  1. #1
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    Quiver Killer Mounting

    Anybody know which shops will mount quiver killer inserts in the Seattle/Crystal mtn area? I know I should just mount my own skis but I don't want to attempt my first mount on new planks.

  2. #2
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    that is why you should attempt your first mount on a 2x4.
    you don't want no smoke.

  3. #3
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    I mounted Binding Freedom inserts myself as my first mount - it's a little more involved than a standard mount but you can buy all the tools needed to do it (outside of a drill) for less than the cost of a shop mount. It's not terribly difficult - just take your time.

  4. #4
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    ProSki Seattle does quiver killers

  5. #5
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    There are so many more ways to screw up an insert mount than a standard mount. Multiple 2x4 mounts and getting a few standard mounts under your fingers is the way to go.

    Shit! After 10 or so insert jobs, I was still upping my insert game. For the guy who knows his way around tools, and is used to solving problems on the fly, then maybe, but I guarantee you'll be scratching your head at least once during the process.

    The "screwdriver" installation tool (for BF only)? The double lock nut technique? What about when the insert wants to back out along with the screw (double lock nut technique)? What about when you mangle the screw slot on the top of a BF insert (dense core - didn't tap deeply enough)?

    Varied core densities? All are things you get better at after multiple mounts.

    I'm not sure I'd trust a shop, and if they don't charge you at least $75, I'd be suspect because they likely don't know what they're doing, and what's involved in doing it correctly - like degreasing the inserts before installing them.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    There are so many more ways to screw up an insert mount than a standard mount. Multiple 2x4 mounts and getting a few standard mounts under your fingers is the way to go.

    Shit! After 10 or so insert jobs, I was still upping my insert game. For the guy who knows his way around tools, and is used to solving problems on the fly, then maybe, but I guarantee you'll be scratching your head at least once during the process.

    The "screwdriver" installation tool (for BF only)? The double lock nut technique? What about when the insert wants to back out along with the screw (double lock nut technique)? What about when you mangle the screw slot on the top of a BF insert (dense core - didn't tap deeply enough)?

    Varied core densities? All are things you get better at after multiple mounts.


    I have, like I suspect Thom has, developed a process so you don't question every step of the install. But until then, I stopped and scratched my head, re-measured, fretted, put down the giant drill bit, etc. I also had the benefit of getting good by co-learning with guys like Thom. Here's my list of tips, which should probably go in the Insert thread, not here lol:

    1. If you have Binding Freedom inserts (with the notch) you can use a flathead the exact width of the insert head. Make sure to find a thin tip, most are too fat
    1.A. If you do enough of these, you'll buy the piece of binding freedom. Then if you do a LOT of these, you'll strip the binding freedom piece and abandon buying $20 bits that break easily

    2. If you arent using binding freedom, aka Quiver Killer brand, or dont have the right flathead, you can use a 5MM bolt with two nuts. I actually recommend more nuts—i find they can move on you with two. You want the absolute MINIMUM number of threads exposed (1? 1/2) that will engage the insert. Reason? Thom said it—the insert will want to back out with the screw, and now you have a sticky mess.

    3. Shoot for 1MM below flush with the ski. Obviously you can't go backwards with the Quiver Killer brand inserts.

    4. Dry upside down

    5. Use proper epoxy. GFlex preferred.

    6. Use a syringe to inject epoxy into the holes. Mix the epoxy in the syringe for a cleaner solution

    7. Inject epoxy just inside the rim. That way it covers the threads and fills the bottom

    8. Acetone the inserts & dry before installing. I put them in a little metal dish with 1/2" of acetone

    9. Find an F drill bit (or buy the binding freedom bit with a shoulder) and put a stopper on it (metal, or metal with tape above it). Be sure about this because if it is loose or moves on you, you just drilled through your ski

    10. Tapping vertical is fucking important. And you have to tap for inserts. Use a centering block of some kind for the proper size of your tap, and clamp in place

    11. Install the bindings, loosely, before the epoxy has set. Approximately an hour after install but before 3 hours when they are semi-set. This gives you A LITTLE wiggle room in case you were off by 1mm here or there. If you don't do this, and you're off by 1mm, your entire mount might be done.

    12. Whatever Thom has to add


    I'm not sure I'd trust a shop, and if they don't charge you at least $75, I'd be suspect because they likely don't know what they're doing, and what's involved in doing it correctly - like degreasing the inserts before installing them.

    ... Thom
    The unspoken reason Thom is saying they better charge at least $75 is that an insert mount done well takes time. Say it takes 2 hours (it will take you longer). That's less than $40/hour. That needs to cover the shop time and paying the rat doing the job. Installing inserts is not a great business.


  7. #7
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    Just another detail on top of margos excellent guide. When you do both the 2x4 trial, and the live mount, start by drilling and mount with the regular screws, sans glue. That way you know the pattern is spot on. Then, dismount binders and drill+tap for inserts as per above.

  8. #8
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    Curious why inserts?

    When invented, I did a few, with the idea of touring or alpine bindings. Options.

    Used bindings are cheap enough, just skip the hassle and mount a normal alpine. Obviously if you diy, inserts are cheaper. But $75 plus the inserts plus the screws? Just get another binding.

    Maybe if storage is tight you could have one binding and three skis, but that’s a hassle vs grab and go if you change skis.

    Travel is the only reason I insert anything these days. Pulling bindings off lightens the load of the ski bag. And you could also travel with two skis and one binding. But again you’re futzing with screws the night before that big dump.

    Ymmv.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

    “I got the degree of Stamp-licker from the Bezuzus Mail-order University”
    Babbitt, by Sinclair Lewis

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Curious why inserts?

    When invented, I did a few, with the idea of touring or alpine bindings. Options.

    Used bindings are cheap enough, just skip the hassle and mount a normal alpine. Obviously if you diy, inserts are cheaper. But $75 plus the inserts plus the screws? Just get another binding.

    Maybe if storage is tight you could have one binding and three skis, but that’s a hassle vs grab and go if you change skis.

    Travel is the only reason I insert anything these days. Pulling bindings off lightens the load of the ski bag. And you could also travel with two skis and one binding. But again you’re futzing with screws the night before that big dump.

    Ymmv.
    Agreed. I've done plenty of inserts installation for myself and my friends. Still have the install kit and a bag full of inserts lying around. They're such a pain in the ass to install and they're so expensive to get them professionally done at the shop.

    My friends wanted them because they wanted to hot-swap touring bindings and downhill bindings on a single ski. Which they did...like once a season.....save yourself the headache and by a second, used setup off craigslist, is my usual advice.
    90% of skiing is just looking cool

  10. #10
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    Is it really a headache to swap them? I'm considering doing them since I have some lightish touring skis with lightweight pin bindings and some heavyish inbound skis w/ pivots that are both 108 width and might be fun to test cross capabilities inbounds/touring + travel.

  11. #11
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    i have inserts installed in my entire quiver. i own one set of tectons for six pairs of skis. they are everything i need almost all the time and make each ski as versatile as the binding itself. i'll probably add inserts for sth2 next season on at least a few skis for those days when i feel a lil sendier.

    installation really isn't that bad. i did my first pair earlier this season and got quicker and more efficient each time. i'd say it takes me an additional 20 minutes for inserts compared to regular mounts at this point. that said, i do have a drill press which makes the entire process infinitely easier and more precise.
    you don't want no smoke.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eSock View Post
    Is it really a headache to swap them? I'm considering doing them since I have some lightish touring skis with lightweight pin bindings and some heavyish inbound skis w/ pivots that are both 108 width and might be fun to test cross capabilities inbounds/touring + travel.
    Depends on the binding. With my ATKs I can swap in 5 minutes as all screws are visible and no adjustment needed to reach them. With vipecs/tectons you first have to remove the heel, unscrew from the ski, put on other ski, re-install heel and set forward pressure. That takes about 20.
    I have inserts on my touring skis to allow me to swap between different touring bindings as well as pivots on the beefier set. Inbounds only skis are mounted without inserts.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eSock View Post
    Is it really a headache to swap them? I'm considering doing them since I have some lightish touring skis with lightweight pin bindings and some heavyish inbound skis w/ pivots that are both 108 width and might be fun to test cross capabilities inbounds/touring + travel.
    Not a headache to swap
    90% of skiing is just looking cool

  14. #14
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    Feb 2015
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    161
    ^ +1
    7 pairs with 3 + 1 sets of bindings.
    I swap Shifts in 5-7 minutes and Tyrolia Attack Demo or Wardens in less than 5. Additionally, I always use Binding Freedom Screws - the PZ3 interface is more robust and reliable.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    I have, like I suspect Thom has, developed a process so you don't question every step of the install. But until then, I stopped and scratched my head, re-measured, fretted, put down the giant drill bit, etc. I also had the benefit of getting good by co-learning with guys like Thom. Here's my list of tips, which should probably go in the Insert thread, not here lol:

    1. If you have Binding Freedom inserts (with the notch) you can use a flathead the exact width of the insert head. Make sure to find a thin tip, most are too fat
    1.A. If you do enough of these, you'll buy the piece of binding freedom. Then if you do a LOT of these, you'll strip the binding freedom piece and abandon buying $20 bits that break easily

    2. If you arent using binding freedom, aka Quiver Killer brand, or dont have the right flathead, you can use a 5MM bolt with two nuts. I actually recommend more nuts—i find they can move on you with two. You want the absolute MINIMUM number of threads exposed (1? 1/2) that will engage the insert. Reason? Thom said it—the insert will want to back out with the screw, and now you have a sticky mess.

    3. Shoot for 1MM below flush with the ski. Obviously you can't go backwards with the Quiver Killer brand inserts.

    4. Dry upside down

    5. Use proper epoxy. GFlex preferred.

    6. Use a syringe to inject epoxy into the holes. Mix the epoxy in the syringe for a cleaner solution

    7. Inject epoxy just inside the rim. That way it covers the threads and fills the bottom

    8. Acetone the inserts & dry before installing. I put them in a little metal dish with 1/2" of acetone

    9. Find an F drill bit (or buy the binding freedom bit with a shoulder) and put a stopper on it (metal, or metal with tape above it). Be sure about this because if it is loose or moves on you, you just drilled through your ski

    10. Tapping vertical is fucking important. And you have to tap for inserts. Use a centering block of some kind for the proper size of your tap, and clamp in place

    11. Install the bindings, loosely, before the epoxy has set. Approximately an hour after install but before 3 hours when they are semi-set. This gives you A LITTLE wiggle room in case you were off by 1mm here or there. If you don't do this, and you're off by 1mm, your entire mount might be done.

    12. Whatever Thom has to add




    The unspoken reason Thom is saying they better charge at least $75 is that an insert mount done well takes time. Say it takes 2 hours (it will take you longer). That's less than $40/hour. That needs to cover the shop time and paying the rat doing the job. Installing inserts is not a great business.
    Good stuff!

    I had a fail with the BF installation tool. It was no doubt, a bad batch. As I recall, the blade cracked. I dedicated a screwdriver to my installation kit. I ground down a blade for a perfect fit. I typically install with the double lock nut on a screw until I feel as if I might bind up the screw (the insert backing out with the screw) and then switch to the screwdriver method. I'll try engaging less thread as you suggested.

    A nice thing about starting with the screw/lock nut is that you can better start the insert vertically. For reasons that escape me, when I start with the installation tool, I always have alignment problems. You'd expect a well tapped (perpendicular) hole to address this. It's a touch thing, and we all have different touches/techniques/feel for the job.

    I was a bit skeptical about screwing the bindings in to better align the screws (leaving them installed for 3-4 hours), for fear of some epoxy being in the inserts. I took extra care with drips, and tried it and I like it. It's especially helpful with tech bindings.

    Ah ... tech bindings ... If you use @xxx-er's technique of mounting the heels first, and then one toe screw, you can spend some extra time on the job. If I have the time, I'll mount 5 holes (4 heel & 1 toe), let the whole job cure and return the next day to align the toe and install the other 3 toe piece holes.

    One thing I learned is that no matter how perfectly vertical you drill your holes, you can mess it up if you don't tap well. If I had to choose one, I'd opt for a tap guide over a drill guide (I made my own tap guide out of some scrap aluminum).

    For adding the epoxy, I have a stash of old guitar strings (the wound ones). I cut them up into 6" pieces and leave them on my workbench - a high tech toothpick ;-) As long as you're diligent and swirl it around, you'll get good coverage. With 45 minutes working time (GFlex), I give them a few minutes and inspect / re-swirl as necessary. Just one of more than a hundred good ways to do this.

    So yeah ... the shop that doesn't charge a lot will no doubt mess up the job (which is of course, no guarantee that paying a lot will get you a good job).

    The people who get this right the first time are either wizards, or have low standards. And then, there's @1000-oaks with his end mill who sets the standard for all of us

    ...Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by eSock View Post
    ProSki Seattle does quiver killers

    Pro Ski in North Bend does it too, but I have seen some issues with their mounting... Using the QK bit for a BF insert....

    REI actually does QK mounting as well.

    If you're local and want to give it a shot, shoot me a PM and we could walk through it.

    "Poop is funny" - Frank Reynolds

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfconroy View Post
    Using the QK bit for a BF insert....
    ???

    They're both bits for a 5/16-18 tap. Am I missing something?

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-07-2021 at 10:55 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  18. #18
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    The bit for QK inserts is 9mm, BF is 9.5. So if you put the BF inserts into a QK hole after its tapped, all the inserts will stick proud by about 0.5mm. Putting all the clamping force onto the insert, and nothing onto the substrate of the ski... real easy way to rip your binding out.
    "Poop is funny" - Frank Reynolds

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfconroy View Post
    The bit for QK inserts is 9mm, BF is 9.5. So if you put the BF inserts into a QK hole after its tapped, all the inserts will stick proud by about 0.5mm. Putting all the clamping force onto the insert, and nothing onto the substrate of the ski... real easy way to rip your binding out.
    Ah! drilling depth.

    I didn't realize they sold a "fixed stop" bit. Years ago (when I received my kit - I believe from QK), it was one of those standard, barrel adjustable ones with two set screws.

    Yup to @margotron's comment about rebating the insert a touch below the top sheet (if the ski thickness will permit). It gives you some margin to play with so the binding contacts the ski as @rfconroy mentions.

    Additional tip. Screws of this size (M5) have full thread strength if you engage 3 threads. These inserts have about 5.5 turns worth of threads available.

    There are cases when you might encounter screws that are either too long or too short, where you'll have to grind down longer screws to get (say) 4 threads engaged.

    As I recall, the front two heel screws on Pivots are one such case. Going from memory, I think I had access to 20 and 24, but wanted 22mm long. I recall not liking the length suggestion on either the BF or QK site.

    Use your eyes, a ruler, and your common sense.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-07-2021 at 08:52 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  20. #20
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    i move bindings between skis, and have a couple skis I like on two bindings (at the same time!! jk). It is simple to swap. Easier than ikea furniture.


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    i move bindings between skis, and have a couple skis I like on two bindings (at the same time!! jk). It is simple to swap. Easier than ikea furniture.
    Im in the same boat. I found that the phillips drive fasteners found on most binders tend to strip over time, since they're made of SS. So I swapped them out for Torx drive which has improved ease of swapping dramatically.
    "Poop is funny" - Frank Reynolds

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfconroy View Post
    Im in the same boat. I found that the phillips drive fasteners found on most binders tend to strip over time, since they're made of SS. So I swapped them out for Torx drive which has improved ease of swapping dramatically.
    You're probably stripping them because they aren't phillips they're pozidrive.

    Phillips drivers are designed to cam out rather than break the screw for manufacturing reasons. They suck and you shouldn't use them.

    Another fun fact for the japanese motorcycle owners out there, those aren't phillips heads either, they're JIS.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdpdx View Post
    You're probably stripping them because they aren't phillips they're pozidrive.

    Phillips drivers are designed to cam out rather than break the screw for manufacturing reasons. They suck and you shouldn't use them.

    Another fun fact for the japanese motorcycle owners out there, those aren't phillips heads either, they're JIS.
    i'm embarrassed to admit this but i used to think i had a head-stripping problem when i found out (thru TGR) that i was just using a philip's screwdriver when i needed to be using pozi. now that i'm using pozi i don't have that problem anymore.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdpdx View Post
    You're probably stripping them because they aren't phillips they're pozidrive.

    Phillips drivers are designed to cam out rather than break the screw for manufacturing reasons. They suck and you shouldn't use them.

    Another fun fact for the japanese motorcycle owners out there, those aren't phillips heads either, they're JIS.
    I feel like if I was the designer for these, or spec'ing the hardware kits, I would default on T25 regardless, less likelihood of stripping, and drivers are more common than pozi drive. Also: I am pretty sure that BF ships with Pozi's but QK are just standard #2 drive.
    "Poop is funny" - Frank Reynolds

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfconroy View Post
    ... I am pretty sure that BF ships with Pozi's but QK are just standard #2 drive.
    ^^^ yes ^^^ it makes for carrying more bits in your repair kit ;-)

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

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