A tune's effect on ski perception.

**DarthMarkus** · 03-29-2021, 01:57 PM

I've seen first hand what a good or bad tune can do to on a ski's reception to the skier. I find detune and edging had the biggest effect for me - I can usually tell if the structure or wax isn't correct and give a pass to the ski, a bad edge can be downright dangerous and frustrates me the most out of anything else. This has probably been discussed already, but I'm curious what the experience has been for other skiers here. Looking for more up-to-date examples of this or specifics in individual skis.

When I used to test skis at SIA the smarter companies would have someone in the back making sure their skis were tuned for the next tester. Some did it better than others... Point is, that even the ski manufacturers understand how important a first impression on a ski is and how much a tune can dictate that impression. With constant changes in shape, camber, and materials, one of the bigger challenges I see is getting the tune correct, and getting it right for the skier. Lots of responsibility on the skier's part, TBH.

I'll give a few examples for myself on a few skis I've owned in the past:

Nordica Zero: still a fairly revolutionary ski, IMO. Maybe a bit much for all but the very dedicated freestyle skiers, but for its time, it actually made me ski switch a lot better and gave me a keen awareness of a ski's sweet spot and how variable it can be depending on the ski and skier. After a few days I found that extending the detune on the tails further back on a completely symmetrical ski gave a lot more versatility in moguls and trees. That paired with a tail profile that was the same width as the tip made the ski behave closer to a normal ski.

Dynastar Cham 107: I didn't really extend the detune into the contact point of the tip on this ski, only the reverse camber/sidecut portion. I found that the cham relied on its sidecut more than bending the ski, so making sure I had all of its shape working on my side made the ski more predictable and manageable.

Dynastar MF108: I did a moderate detune on the tip and tail section of the ski that still have the parabolic shape, but are reverse cambered. I found this a bit more manageable than the tune that came out of the factory. Engagement of the very tip still happens, but I found it less hooky as the tip engaged a little more predictably as you turn the ski over and bend the camber out of the ski. I did this as well as changed the bevels on my edges myself. This was done after I took my skis into a shop and trusted them to do it; whatever they did to the ski made me hate it for about two days. Literally made me consider whether I made a mistake buying the MF108 - a perfect example of how the wrong, or even a BAD tune can make you hate a ski and jump to some incorrect conclusions.

Blizzard peacemaker/gunsmokes: both these skis required very little from me. Did a little detune on the contacts points of the tips and tails extending about 1.5 inches towards the center of the ski. I kept the bevels at 1 & 1. My MF108s currently feel very similar to the peacemakers, and that's with a pretty significant difference in base bevel. Seems strange to me and the only thing I can come up with is that the camber profile in the MF108 is more agresisve than the peacemakers and toning the bevel out makes it feel similar to the peacemaker and its looser camber profile;

Thoughts? Anyone have other specifics on a ski that maybe you would have misjudged? What did you change? This subject is probably old hat to a lot of people here, but I'm curious how it relates to current model skis.

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**Falcon3** · 03-29-2021, 02:24 PM

Not ski related but I did sleep on a super thick pillow top mattress that felt like shit. Checked underneath and sure enough, found a pea under there.

**XXX-er** · 03-29-2021, 03:06 PM

I usually run ski sharp tip to tail, i only detuned the last 10 cms of an evil handling ski the BD verdict

I showed up very late to the troll tele fest , they said yeah you can sleep in the basement of that cabin next to the lodge, so there was a stack 6 mattresses I slept on and I couldn't feel the pea but i never really checked for one either

**spudbumkin** · 03-29-2021, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

I usually run ski sharp tip to tail, i only detuned the last 10 cms of an evil handling ski the BD verdictr

I run sharp tip to tail as well. I have never had any problems running flat base bevels either. I am not very sophisticated though.

**XXX-er** · 03-29-2021, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by spudbumkin

I run sharp tip to tail as well. I have never had any problems running flat base bevels either. I am not very sophisticated though.

your name was the clue

**Beder** · 03-29-2021, 03:55 PM

I buy too many skis and I usually ski them as is right out of the wrapper. Occasionally I'll put a soft gummy on the edge for a pass or two.

A few years ago at the industry demo days at Snowbasin I stopped at the Black Crows booth and grabbed a pair to try. The tune was as bad as I'd ever experienced, almost unskiable. I get back to the booth and try to have a conversation with the kid in charge but he didn't give a fuck and there went my one and only experience with Black Crows.

**gregL** · 03-29-2021, 04:26 PM

It happens all the time.

Not every ski rep is a great tuner, and most don't have the time to test ride every pair (or even a representative pair of each model) - they can barely get the bindings on them in time for the spring testing/demo season. I have skied examples of poorly or inappropriately tuned skis from pretty much everyone (there are exceptions, our Kästle rep is also the Wintersteiger rep and the skis are always dialed) - when it happens I try to suggest a solution that will help the ski show itself better. There are also vast discrepancies in the ability of testers to see past tuning deficiencies and see the potential of skis, and the best testers are often not the buyers . . .

**EWG** · 03-29-2021, 04:42 PM

I think this happens a lot with wider skis and how they can carve on harder snow. For a number of models I've ridden if the tune is dialed they can hold an edge. If not, they can get unpredictable - I'm not sure when they will bite and when they'll let go. When I've seen it my belief is that is has to do with edge angles being right and/or getting the detune right at the ends so that you carve underfoot without getting short circuited by the tip and tail.

Go ahead and tell me why this proves I'm insane. You're probably right.

**Viva** · 03-29-2021, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon3

Not ski related but I did sleep on a super thick pillow top mattress that felt like shit. Checked underneath and sure enough, found a pea under there.

Was it not detuned back to the effective edge?

**gregL** · 03-29-2021, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by EWG

I think this happens a lot with wider skis and how they can carve on harder snow. For a number of models I've ridden if the tune is dialed they can hold an edge. If not, they can get unpredictable - I'm not sure when they will bite and when they'll let go. When I've seen it my belief is that is has to do with edge angles being right and/or getting the detune right at the ends so that you carve underfoot without getting short circuited by the tip and tail.

What wider skis are you talking about? For a ski to have decent hard snow performance it needs to be built with adequate torsional stiffness and a decent amount of edge contact from the start, you can't just take a wimpy wide full rocker ski and give it a .75 and 3 degree tune and make it a "carver."

**m2711c** · 03-29-2021, 06:44 PM

praxis mvp

**EWG** · 03-29-2021, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by gregL

What wider skis are you talking about? For a ski to have decent hard snow performance it needs to be built with adequate torsional stiffness and a decent amount of edge contact from the start, you can't just take a wimpy wide full rocker ski and give it a .75 and 3 degree tune and make it a "carver."

First one that comes to mind is Line Sick Day 110. I skied them now and then for a couple of years. Not trying to make them be carvers, but they would perform decently on hard pack if I had them reasonably sharp and detuned tips and tails a little. With a full edge they would act. Little weird but detuning took care of it. Also, I decided to get a shop tune on them instead of doing it myself after owning them a year or two. Ski came back very skittish. Turns out they tuned to a different angle. Returned myself and performance came back.

I have a couple others that I’m playing with now that I think are similar but I’m not sure yet.

On the other hand I’m currently enjoying a pair of 114 Mordecais that do not seem to need any detuning to carve well. So it’s not universal and might just be perception bias.

**Shorty_J** · 03-29-2021, 07:40 PM

I think the only thing that can really be "wrong" with a ski is if its railed (edge high) or convex (edge low)... but that second problem is only really an issue on narrower skis... I had a powder ski that had that problem and I loved it.

Detuning, and to what extent is personal preference, IMO.

I detune a fair amount but that's just me and I wouldn't blame that on the tune. I can undo that easily, and I have with a rock if needed... but if someone wanted them sharp front to back that's tougher to adjust for me on the fly.

Edge high is pretty much unskiable and down right dangerous. That's the thing I think we should be able to expect from a brand new ski that doesn't always happen.

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**ZomblibulaX** · 03-29-2021, 08:43 PM

Tuning skis is not difficult, but what constitutes a well-tuned ski can be fairly subjective. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. But there's only so many variables to consider, so it's typically easy to diagnose and correct an issue.

I've been tuning at a slopeside shop for a good little while, and since we're right there, every fucked up thing comes through our door. Far and away, the most consistent issue with new or newly-tuned skis is inconsistent or incomplete beveling. The simplest way to think of it is to consider each face of your edges as a plane: the same angle from tip to tail. There are a number of specialized exceptions, but for the most part each edge should have the same bevel for the length of the ski, not just the running surface. An increasingly large majority of skis come out of the bag or off the bench with bevels that drop to 0 inside of the contact points, because automatic edgers still can't accommodate rocker and taper. This can cause hooky, squirrely, skitterish, inconsistent or unfriendly skis which many people mistakenly rectify with severe detuning.

I've been fortunate enough to have worked with an awful lot of nice machinery, and even when you're pulling a ski out of a trimjet, it needs hand work to finish the edges, since the machines (which have gotten significantly better, admittedly) still have a hard time with modern ski geometry. Many tuners working with simpler machinery often neglect this as well. It's easy to tune inside of the sidecut, but things get a little trickier when skis taper or rocker.

Mill bastards, sidewalks and rocks are effective tools for detuning edges, but it's a bit like slicing a cake with an axe. If you can't do it with a $5 pocket stone there's a very good chance you needn't be doing it at all. If it works for you, that's great, but you can't undo detuning without removing material from the ski (read: grinding and filing), and you only got so much ski.

Incomplete edge planes are pretty easy to spot if you look closely, and are the first thing you should check if a new or newly tuned ski is behaving badly.

And if you're inclined to detune the shit out of your ski, try bumping up your base bevel from the contact points out and lightly detuning first. Makes a world of difference with heavily rockered and tapered skis, and is something that can be corrected easily (with a rock, if need be).

FWIW, I tossed and turned all night on a mile high tower of fluffy clouds and fresh spun cotton candy, and when I looked beneath, there wasn't even a speck of dust.

**DarthMarkus** · 03-29-2021, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX

Tuning skis is not difficult, but what constitutes a well-tuned ski can be fairly subjective. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. But there's only so many variables to consider, so it's typically easy to diagnose and correct an issue.

I've been tuning at a slopeside shop for a good little while, and since we're right there, every fucked up thing comes through our door. Far and away, the most consistent issue with new or newly-tuned skis is inconsistent or incomplete beveling. The simplest way to think of it is to consider each face of your edges as a plane: the same angle from tip to tail. There are a number of specialized exceptions, but for the most part each edge should have the same bevel for the length of the ski, not just the running surface. An increasingly large majority of skis come out of the bag or off the bench with bevels that drop to 0 inside of the contact points, because automatic edgers still can't accommodate rocker and taper. This can cause hooky, squirrely, skitterish, inconsistent or unfriendly skis which many people mistakenly rectify with severe detuning.

I've been fortunate enough to have worked with an awful lot of nice machinery, and even when you're pulling a ski out of a trimjet, it needs hand work to finish the edges, since the machines (which have gotten significantly better, admittedly) still have a hard time with modern ski geometry. Many tuners working with simpler machinery often neglect this as well. It's easy to tune inside of the sidecut, but things get a little trickier when skis taper or rocker.

Mill bastards, sidewalks and rocks are effective tools for detuning edges, but it's a bit like slicing a cake with an axe. If you can't do it with a $5 pocket stone there's a very good chance you needn't be doing it at all. If it works for you, that's great, but you can't undo detuning without removing material from the ski (read: grinding and filing), and you only got so much ski.

Incomplete edge planes are pretty easy to spot if you look closely, and are the first thing you should check if a new or newly tuned ski is behaving badly.

And if you're inclined to detune the shit out of your ski, try bumping up your base bevel from the contact points out and lightly detuning first. Makes a world of difference with heavily rockered and tapered skis, and is something that can be corrected easily (with a rock, if need be).

FWIW, I tossed and turned all night on a mile high tower of fluffy clouds and fresh spun cotton candy, and when I looked beneath, there wasn't even a speck of dust.

I think you put into words very well what I've probably been unable to explain on a very implicit level. It makes a lot of sense, especially the part about the rocker profiles suffering from machinery that wasn't mean to tune it.

I worked in a shop for a while, and I got pretty good at using the edger we had to follow the rocker profile. Admittedly this did take a little bit of skill development for getting the base and side bevels - keeping the base of the ski on the guide isn't as intuitive as it is on a ski with more camber.

I think what I've discounted is the ability for all machinery and all people working in the shop to understand this concept. Because what you described is almost verbatim my experience after I took my m-frees in to my local shop.

So far I think the moral I've learned here so far is that I should continue tuning my own equipment and stop being lazy. After having access to a full shop it's hard to go back to tuning skis in my garage though...

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**tuco** · 03-30-2021, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX

Tuning skis is not difficult, but what constitutes a well-tuned ski can be fairly subjective. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. But there's only so many variables to consider, so it's typically easy to diagnose and correct an issue.

I've been tuning at a slopeside shop for a good little while, and since we're right there, every fucked up thing comes through our door. Far and away, the most consistent issue with new or newly-tuned skis is inconsistent or incomplete beveling. The simplest way to think of it is to consider each face of your edges as a plane: the same angle from tip to tail. There are a number of specialized exceptions, but for the most part each edge should have the same bevel for the length of the ski, not just the running surface. An increasingly large majority of skis come out of the bag or off the bench with bevels that drop to 0 inside of the contact points, because automatic edgers still can't accommodate rocker and taper. This can cause hooky, squirrely, skitterish, inconsistent or unfriendly skis which many people mistakenly rectify with severe detuning.

I've been fortunate enough to have worked with an awful lot of nice machinery, and even when you're pulling a ski out of a trimjet, it needs hand work to finish the edges, since the machines (which have gotten significantly better, admittedly) still have a hard time with modern ski geometry. Many tuners working with simpler machinery often neglect this as well. It's easy to tune inside of the sidecut, but things get a little trickier when skis taper or rocker.

Mill bastards, sidewalks and rocks are effective tools for detuning edges, but it's a bit like slicing a cake with an axe. If you can't do it with a $5 pocket stone there's a very good chance you needn't be doing it at all. If it works for you, that's great, but you can't undo detuning without removing material from the ski (read: grinding and filing), and you only got so much ski.

Incomplete edge planes are pretty easy to spot if you look closely, and are the first thing you should check if a new or newly tuned ski is behaving badly.

And if you're inclined to detune the shit out of your ski, try bumping up your base bevel from the contact points out and lightly detuning first. Makes a world of difference with heavily rockered and tapered skis, and is something that can be corrected easily (with a rock, if need be).

FWIW, I tossed and turned all night on a mile high tower of fluffy clouds and fresh spun cotton candy, and when I looked beneath, there wasn't even a speck of dust.

I used to hand finish every ski that came off the machine w/ bevel guides, then 1 last finish pass on stone. Makes a huge difference. Not sure that modern shapes are the culprit for inconsistent bevels though. Also, ceramic, belt or structure in edge from stone can cause skiability issues(hand finish rectifies this too)

**buttahflake** · 03-30-2021, 05:32 AM

The hanging burr is the issue, soft gummi, tip to tail negates the hanging burr. It’s the biggest part of tuning skis for the public, soft gummi is critical. Race skis we leave the burr, pure grip on pure ice.

**tuco** · 03-30-2021, 05:36 AM

Can't remember the name of the damn tool, but we used to have a little machine that would cut a groove into the edge about as long as the boot(for racing).

**Fred Pabst** · 03-30-2021, 08:59 AM

Got to experience edge high effect(railed) on a pair of Stockli Stormrider 95's, the green/black/white one from a few years ago. Fuk I thought I was going to die. I have had alot of skis and never had that happen on a brand new pair. I tried to fix them myself-they got a little better but ultimately had to have them ground. After that blown away by skis performance.

**XXX-er** · 03-30-2021, 09:57 AM

I had a ski like that ^^ railed/ concave, fixing it with a file would have taken forever so in that situation a stone grind was a good idea but i don't stone grind all my skis only as needed

by the same token I detune a ski as needed

otherwise its just part of the initial prep

**SoVT Joey** · 03-30-2021, 11:18 AM

I hand bevel all base bevels. And then do my final pass on the machine. I set side bevel on the machine or by hand. That’s depending on customer and ski. Race skis are always a hand finish.

All of my skis are a 3 degree side edge and vary from .75 to 1 on base edge depending on what I’m trying to make the ski do. I usually tri-1 all of my personal skis. I don’t detune at all.

Every jerry gets pretty much a 2 side and 1 base. Always gummi for jerry.

All of the race tunes are 3 and .5 for sl and .75 for gs and speed unless they come in asking for different and that’s fairly rare these days. All are tri-1 and all are left with the burr. Nasty sharp.

**benzo92** · 03-30-2021, 02:15 PM

Joey, just out of curiosity, did you give that ferox tri-1? Feels pretty good.

**SoVT Joey** · 03-30-2021, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by benzo92

Just out of curiosity, did you tune that ferox I bought off of you the same way? Feels pretty good.

Ya. I ground the shit out of it though to get it flat. It was shit from the factory. It has a Zai grind on it and a .75 and 3. I didn’t tri 1 that edge though.

**benzo92** · 03-30-2021, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by SoVT Joey

Ya. I ground the shit out of it though to get it flat. It was shit from the factory. It has a Zai grind on it and a .75 and 3.

Good to know, might retune some of my other skis

**ZomblibulaX** · 03-31-2021, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by DarthMarkus

I think you put into words very well what I've probably been unable to explain on a very implicit level. It makes a lot of sense, especially the part about the rocker profiles suffering from machinery that wasn't mean to tune it.

I worked in a shop for a while, and I got pretty good at using the edger we had to follow the rocker profile. Admittedly this did take a little bit of skill development for getting the base and side bevels - keeping the base of the ski on the guide isn't as intuitive as it is on a ski with more camber.

I think what I've discounted is the ability for all machinery and all people working in the shop to understand this concept. Because what you described is almost verbatim my experience after I took my m-frees in to my local shop.

So far I think the moral I've learned here so far is that I should continue tuning my own equipment and stop being lazy. After having access to a full shop it's hard to go back to tuning skis in my garage though...

After 20-odd years on the bench, I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable letting someone else tune my skis. It's not like I'm the world's greatest fucking ski tech or anything, but that's still a hard thing to get over I bet.

It's not like the machinery has completely fallen behind the times, but there's things that get overlooked that didn't used to. And honestly, tuning straight/skinny skis was way easier. Getting modern skis flat enough just to get a consistent bevel on them is a task nowadays. I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but we also used to have much more of a relationship with our clientele than now. Most people only want a tune when everything sucks: no wax, edges beat to shit, bases torn to shreds. There's still any number of people that are persnickety or have specific preferences or just like to talk shop, but there used to be a lot more back and forth between the tuner and the skier regarding detuning, edge progressiveness, etc. than there is now. I think it's because you can ski a half-ass tune on modern equipment all year and be fine, and many people have just lost connection with their skis to some extent, or just don't need to be that specific about it. If I had to guess, this may well be a Western phenomenon, maybe some of the right coasters can shed light on that. But it seems like even racers now are less concerned with their tuning, just make it sharp everywhere and fast.

Originally Posted by tuco

I used to hand finish every ski that came off the machine w/ bevel guides, then 1 last finish pass on stone. Makes a huge difference.

Exactly. It ain't hard, you just gotta do the steps and not cut corners. I don't think modern shapes are necessarily the culprit, but I do see a lot of things being overlooked or not appropriately addressed with modern skis (especially out of the factory nowadays; come on, Dynastar) that didn't used to.

Originally Posted by SoVT Joey

I hand bevel all base bevels. And then do my final pass on the machine. I set side bevel on the machine or by hand. That’s depending on customer and ski. Race skis are always a hand finish.

You're doing God's work there, Joey. And I'm glad I'm not out east and don't need a 3 on every ski I own.