A tune's effect on ski perception.

[SoVT Joey]

After 20-odd years on the bench, I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable letting someone else tune my skis. It's not like I'm the world's greatest fucking ski tech or anything, but that's still a hard thing to get over I bet.

It's not like the machinery has completely fallen behind the times, but there's things that get overlooked that didn't used to. And honestly, tuning straight/skinny skis was way easier. Getting modern skis flat enough just to get a consistent bevel on them is a task nowadays. I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but we also used to have much more of a relationship with our clientele than now. Most people only want a tune when everything sucks: no wax, edges beat to shit, bases torn to shreds. There's still any number of people that are persnickety or have specific preferences or just like to talk shop, but there used to be a lot more back and forth between the tuner and the skier regarding detuning, edge progressiveness, etc. than there is now. I think it's because you can ski a half-ass tune on modern equipment all year and be fine, and many people have just lost connection with their skis to some extent, or just don't need to be that specific about it. If I had to guess, this may well be a Western phenomenon, maybe some of the right coasters can shed light on that. But it seems like even racers now are less concerned with their tuning, just make it sharp everywhere and fast.



Exactly. It ain't hard, you just gotta do the steps and not cut corners. I don't think modern shapes are necessarily the culprit, but I do see a lot of things being overlooked or not appropriately addressed with modern skis (especially out of the factory nowadays; come on, Dynastar) that didn't used to.



You're doing God's work there, Joey. And I'm glad I'm not out east and don't need a 3 on every ski I own.

Snow is just so much better then 20 years ago in consistency that I think I makes it easier to ski a shitty tune and skis ski for people. Also ice these days is like hard pack.

I also do like to test people. I love the spandex clad masters that come in and claim they need a 3/.5 like the academy kids. If I gave them what they asked for, they would be hooked up around a tree off the side of North American. Can’t be setting people up for failure. But a good ski tech can ask a few correct questions and get a feel for the bullshit meter pretty quick.

You also get two warnings with us. If you get race tunes, you keep you skis in pristine shape like an adult. We will say something twice about lack of straps on skis for transport, we can tell, or if they don’t wipe down when they are done skiing, if it doesn’t change, we officially stop caring as much.

A lot of kids don’t get taught this stuff anymore though and tuning is a lost art for a lot. But I am always willing to show the next generation some stuff.

when it takes an hour or more (used to be longer) per pair for race tunes, you better respect the quality though.

[MD12]

I love tuning my own skis. Remember being 12-14 and my uncle teaching me out in Alta. One of those memories I’ll never forget. I got back into it this year and find it relaxing and kind of therapeutic. Kind of like tying fishing knots. There’s something about the whole process of taking your gear from start to finish, accomplishing something (catching a tuna after you rigged up yourself, having a greet day on the mountain) that makes the whole thing more enjoyable for me. Having your knots give out after fighting a fish for an hour, or realizing you did a shit job on a tune - part of the learning process that makes the accomplishment even more rewarding.

[anotherVTskibum]

...

You also get two warnings with us. If you get race tunes, you keep you skis in pristine shape like an adult. We will say something twice about lack of straps on skis for transport, we can tell, or if they don’t wipe down when they are done skiing, if it doesn’t change, we officially stop caring as much.

A lot of kids don’t get taught this stuff anymore though and tuning is a lost art for a lot. But I am always willing to show the next generation some stuff.

when it takes an hour or more (used to be longer) per pair for race tunes, you better respect the quality though.

As much as I understand the huge benefits of racers using tuning services (whether via a shop or via an academy program), there really is something lost in them not tuning their own stuff.

In the short run, it makes it rather easy to take less care of your equipment, because you're not the one spending the time to clean it up. In the long run, I worry that we're going to end up with the next generation of coaches not knowing how to tune, either.

On the original subject, the wrong wax or structure is annoying, and dull edges can be problematic with firm surfaces; but IMO it's the flatness of the base and the base bevels that can really impact the usability of the ski. If you have either poor build quality or enough wear to get an effective base bevel of 2 degrees or more, it becomes damn near impossible to get the ski on edge quickly. Truly flat would probably be very hard to ski unless you're on very smooth surfaces and wearing properly set up race boots, but I've never run into that; even a race bevel on the base is enough to allow for a bit of wiggle room.

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[SchralphMacchio]

Tech question: on a modern 5 point shape - is there any point to having a sharp, or even true but dull, edge on the tip and tail taper sections?

I’ve been trying to rationalize the mechanics of what a reverse sidecut edge should be doing when it’s interacting with the snow ... on some of my skis I’ve gone so far as to even completely remove the edge in these zones by rounding it. I figure that these sections should only be interacting with the snow in 3D conditions - and I figure I want them to have zero steering influence and minimal friction, hence the rounding.

[jono]

I've done the same. No regerts. The part of the edge that can only cut the other ski has to go.

[anotherVTskibum]

I've done the same. No regerts. The part of the edge that can only cut the other ski has to go.

I subscribe to this theory as well—if it manages to hit the snow-surface in a 3D-surface situation, I do not want it to engage. I strongly suspect the base being flat there would be helpful in avoiding an unwanted hindrance on engagement further along the ski, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[detrusor]

Ok. Point of contention with the kids race skis between the wife and I. SL .5/3 GS .75/3 and sharp tip to tail. When the older fell and hurt her knee the question was raised if her tips and tails were too sharp. They have skied them sharp since forever. I do taper a bit with a gummy if the snow is softer but otherwise razor sharp tip to tail contact points.

Thoughts from the pros out there? I do take the hanging burr off, that’s just slow with inconsistent grip in my mind.


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[SchralphMacchio]

HRZN / spoon tips say the boat hull is better than flat ... never tried it, and the Blister guys aren’t engineering experts but they didn’t seem to be able to tell much difference.


I haven’t yet experienced negative consequences yet to rounding off the tip and tail taper sections (and I like fast engagement at the shovel’s widest point so I actually start transitioning well before it so that it’s still factory sharp 1-2 cm inside of the widest point) ... but just wanted to point out that when I say “round” and “remove the edge at the tip and tail taper,” I’m literally taking a dremel and applying a radius to the edge at the tip and tail and then having it still true but dull at the widest points.

Since this process is non reversible I wanted to get other peoples thoughts on it.

[jono]

I'm also conservative about how close I get to the widest point of the ski for that reason. It shouldn't need great precision, I don't think--I've never noticed any difference since doing that except reduced top sheet dings. I also have HRZN skis with the edge-less tips and the thing I notice most about them is how light and easily perturbed the tips are. But I don't think I'm rounding off enough material to get comparable to that.

[anotherVTskibum]

Ok. Point of contention with the kids race skis between the wife and I. SL .5/3 GS .75/3 and sharp tip to tail. When the older fell and hurt her knee the question was raised if her tips and tails were too sharp. They have skied them sharp since forever. I do taper a bit with a gummy if the snow is softer but otherwise razor sharp tip to tail contact points.

Thoughts from the pros out there? I do take the hanging burr off, that’s just slow with inconsistent grip in my mind.

Race skis should be sharp for the full (contact) length of the edge. If that creates a problem, figure out what the pilot is doing wrong, and address the technique issue.

Most, if not all, eastern academy programs are now set up so that athletes' skis are maintained with ceramic disc machines of some variety on a near-nightly basis. I don't know about western ones, but I would expect something similar at least for those that have access to race-prepped training venues. IMO, modulating pressure and movements to manage a sharp ski on softer snow should be completely doable; getting a not-so-sharp ski to hook up on a truly firm surface is a lot more challenging.

(and yes, I'm a race coach, and even my soft-snow skis have ceramic-sharpened edges)

[SoVT Joey]

Race skis should be sharp for the full (contact) length of the edge. If that creates a problem, figure out what the pilot is doing wrong, and address the technique issue.

Most, if not all, eastern academy programs are now set up so that athletes' skis are maintained with ceramic disc machines of some variety on a near-nightly basis. I don't know about western ones, but I would expect something similar at least for those that have access to race-prepped training venues. IMO, modulating pressure and movements to manage a sharp ski on softer snow should be completely doable; getting a not-so-sharp ski to hook up on a truly firm surface is a lot more challenging.

(and yes, I'm a race coach, and even my soft-snow skis have ceramic-sharpened edges)

I’m in total agreement about athletes needing to tune on their own. I learned a lot doing mine. And I agree, pilot error most likely.

[ZomblibulaX]

Snow is just so much better then 20 years ago in consistency that I think I makes it easier to ski a shitty tune and skis ski for people. Also ice these days is like hard pack.

Good point, snowmaking and grooming is so much better (and more widespread) now.

Tech question: on a modern 5 point shape - is there any point to having a sharp, or even true but dull, edge on the tip and tail taper sections?

I’ve been trying to rationalize the mechanics of what a reverse sidecut edge should be doing when it’s interacting with the snow ... on some of my skis I’ve gone so far as to even completely remove the edge in these zones by rounding it. I figure that these sections should only be interacting with the snow in 3D conditions - and I figure I want them to have zero steering influence and minimal friction, hence the rounding.

If it ain't sidecut, take it down. Not every five-point ski suffers equally, but in 3D snow sharp, tapered tips can cause hookiness and deflection for sure. On my wider skis, I take it one step further, and bump the base bevel up from 1 to 2 deg outside of the contact points, then round it off with a pocket stone before smoothing it out with a gummy. Helps skiing in the weeds too, so you're not hooking tips on saplings and willows and shit. I don't go crazy with it, but I do knock the edge down on any tapered skis before they go out.

Ok. Point of contention with the kids race skis between the wife and I. SL .5/3 GS .75/3 and sharp tip to tail. When the older fell and hurt her knee the question was raised if her tips and tails were too sharp. They have skied them sharp since forever. I do taper a bit with a gummy if the snow is softer but otherwise razor sharp tip to tail contact points.

Thoughts from the pros out there? I do take the hanging burr off, that’s just slow with inconsistent grip in my mind.

Depends on the skier, but you can give the tail a couple swipes right where it leaves the snow with a gummy to give them a little relief before they're flying ass first in to the red room. Tips on SL skis can be a little tricky, since the widest point of the ski is often above the contact point, and kids who are old enough to cross block properly often ski close enough to put a tip right up a gate, and a super sharp leading edge can cause deflection and hooking. There's a balance there, and I usually split the difference between the contact point and the widest point of the sidecut, and give the top of that half a couple good rubs with a soft gummi just to take the edge off a little. Ultimately, a little inside ski deflection isn't the worst thing that can happen to you, so go easy on it.

Speed skis are a different story, and there's too many kids racing on SG skis (or worse, too long GS skis) that are too sharp in the tip and tail. Coaches are best positioned to identify this, if not correct it since they're out there watching the kid ski.

I’m in total agreement about athletes needing to tune on their own. I learned a lot doing mine. And I agree, pilot error most likely.

100%, and parents too. I've been telling coaches for years, there's barely anyone who is going to the big show, but every race kid should know how to tune a ski by the time they're done in the program. That way they're guaranteed a low-paying job with plenty of environmental hazards if they don't end up on the WC.

[detrusor]

I tune the skis after every day on snow, have a ceramic edge swix thing for when polishing won’t do it. Watching what happens to the kids whose parents Buy a tune before the big race is kinda funny, they have no idea how the ski is reacting. Some say I’m anal , i just think they need consistent performance.


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