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  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio-smear View Post
    A final thought, and this one could get ugly.

    Dudes, before you make that fateful creampie that will change your life forever, conduct an honest audit of your mate. Silently, of course.

    Does she do most stuff without asking your opinion first?
    Does she cook meals on her own? Can she vs does she?
    Does she have some measure of autonomy or hobbies that are her own?
    Is she a good/safe driver?

    You could make this list as long as you need. See the "Jesus Hercules Christ I Love My Wife and All" thread.

    It's an assessment that needs to be made. I see my buddy's life and it's a little different. His wife is a super mom and LOVES it.
    Iíve had this thought a million times in the last 6 weeks, thank fucking god I didnít have a kid with ex Mrs SnapT. She wouldnít have been able to handle it and was a terrible teammate and it would have ended us. Mrs SnapT and I work shift work and are used to dealing with irrational people and their bodily fluids on minimal sleep so I think that prepared us well. A good buddy lectured me hard that kids are just small cave men for the first decade or so and thus far it rings true.

  2. #1052
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    Having the same parenting approach as your partner is so important. I know because I experienced the opposite (my ex was / is pretty intense and I was always more relaxed... for example, if the kids go to bed 10-15 minutes later but you don't create a stressful situation about it they actually end up falling asleep earlier when all is said and done). Now that we're divorced it's funny to see the different styles play out. She's always complaining about kid behavior and then they come to my house and everyone gets along great and there's almost no drama. My oldest daughter (14) confirms this to be the case as well. Setting the tone is highly underrated and kids feed off it both for good and bad.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio-smear View Post
    I see my buddy's life and it's a little different. His wife is a super mom and LOVES it.
    Most dads I know seem to gauge their happiness level by how little life has changed. If their spouse does everything, then they are happy.

    I am curious if there are any stay at home dads here? Despite our society trying to be more gender equal, when I take the kids to the children's museum on a Monday it seems 95% moms and 5% dads. This despite the fact woman increasingly have better, and higher paying careers than men.

    I have a friend who is married to a younger, very ambitious doctor who popped out two kids right after residency. She has the higher paying, better career, than my friend. They are struggling as parents despite the fact they have tons of money, and have an abundance of nannies. I tell him he should try to go down to part time and become a house husband. He doesn't want to, not because of the lost income (they don't need the money) but because he enjoys the time away from the family at his job. I think there is also the "man needs to be the breadwinner" belief and it would hurt his ego.

  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Most dads I know seem to gauge their happiness level by how little life has changed. If their spouse does everything, then they are happy.

    I am curious if there are any stay at home dads here? Despite our society trying to be more gender equal, when I take the kids to the children's museum on a Monday it seems 95% moms and 5% dads. This despite the fact woman increasingly have better, and higher paying careers than men.

    I have a friend who is married to a younger, very ambitious doctor who popped out two kids right after residency. She has the higher paying, better career, than my friend. They are struggling as parents despite the fact they have tons of money, and have an abundance of nannies. I tell him he should try to go down to part time and become a house husband. He doesn't want to, not because of the lost income (they don't need the money) but because he enjoys the time away from the family at his job. I think there is also the "man needs to be the breadwinner" belief and it would hurt his ego.
    I do most of the household stuff. I frankly canít wait to go part or 3/4 time. I donít want to sit around the house all day while the kids are at school, but having more time in the evening and mornings is going to be great.

  5. #1055
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    What about - waking up early, walking the dog, making breakfast and lunch for the kids, getting them dressed and out the door, going to work for 10 hours, getting your ass-handed to you at work - coming home exhausted and the wife says "the kids are driving me crazy - i'm retreating to the bedroom for the night" - then your sad ass is making dinner, doing laundry, putting the kids to bed....and the next day is Groundhog day, same shit again....

    Or, for example, the wife is dealing with sick kids at home while WFH and after a few days of this she is like "I'm going to the desert alone for a few days, see ya Monday" and while I support us having alone-time mini-vacations 110% and it is VERY good for her to do this - when can a Dad ever say "I'm leaving for the weekend, I need a break from family life!", it just doesn't happen. When everything falls apart we gotta be the strong ones even if yer not in the mood for it. Sure, we can plan bike/ski trips in advance but we can't just drop out of life on a whim and refuel when needed.

  6. #1056
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    I mostly work from home selling real estate other than reporting to the ski hill to instruct part time. After my wifeís maternity leave is up she will return to work full-time and I will be the primary caregiver to our little girl that is coming in May. Three grandparents are relatively close by and hopefully going to get closer. I have some other friends, retirees from our church, that have also offered to help. Iím hoping to have a situation where I have a small network of friends and family that given a day or two of notice can help me go show some houses or have a client meeting at the office. But, there arenít a lot of daycare options, so weíll see. My wife is usually home from work pretty early and can document any time before the next business day, so she may relieve me during the early afternoon and then I take over again after dinner while she finishes up work. Weíll see. Right now weíre just looking forward to a few months of everyone being at home together.

  7. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    You nailed it. Our youngest will not only hold out at any cost, she will literally laugh at your attempts to shape her behavior. She's like a maniacal porcupine with no concept of fucks given.
    .
    Sig worthy

    Maniacal porcupine with no fucks given.

    Yep.

  8. #1058
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    All I can really contribute here is to say to do the best you can and enjoy your time with your family as much as you can, even the frustrating moments.

    Try not to second guess yourself. I think this is the hardest thing for me. A bunch of "what if I had done something differently" questions don't change anything today.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted reborn View Post
    What about - waking up early, walking the dog, making breakfast and lunch for the kids, getting them dressed and out the door, going to work for 10 hours, getting your ass-handed to you at work - coming home exhausted and the wife says "the kids are driving me crazy - i'm retreating to the bedroom for the night" - then your sad ass is making dinner, doing laundry, putting the kids to bed....and the next day is Groundhog day, same shit again....

    Or, for example, the wife is dealing with sick kids at home while WFH and after a few days of this she is like "I'm going to the desert alone for a few days, see ya Monday" and while I support us having alone-time mini-vacations 110% and it is VERY good for her to do this - when can a Dad ever say "I'm leaving for the weekend, I need a break from family life!", it just doesn't happen. When everything falls apart we gotta be the strong ones even if yer not in the mood for it. Sure, we can plan bike/ski trips in advance but we can't just drop out of life on a whim and refuel when needed.
    Hey, that sounds like my life.
    sigless.

  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted reborn View Post
    What about - waking up early, walking the dog, making breakfast and lunch for the kids, getting them dressed and out the door, going to work for 10 hours, getting your ass-handed to you at work - coming home exhausted and the wife says "the kids are driving me crazy - i'm retreating to the bedroom for the night" - then your sad ass is making dinner, doing laundry, putting the kids to bed....and the next day is Groundhog day, same shit again....

    Or, for example, the wife is dealing with sick kids at home while WFH and after a few days of this she is like "I'm going to the desert alone for a few days, see ya Monday" and while I support us having alone-time mini-vacations 110% and it is VERY good for her to do this - when can a Dad ever say "I'm leaving for the weekend, I need a break from family life!", it just doesn't happen. When everything falls apart we gotta be the strong ones even if yer not in the mood for it. Sure, we can plan bike/ski trips in advance but we can't just drop out of life on a whim and refuel when needed.
    Sounds like a bit more of an indictment of your marriage than your kids?

  11. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touring_Sedan View Post
    Sounds like a bit more of an indictment of your marriage than your kids?
    Yeah, partner communication is key. It's a team sport, and everyone needs their breaks. Good communication is tough and it's easy to just expect others to "handle it", but you have to check in to make sure there isn't discontent growing. Finding the balance and how to effectively tag team is part of the journey. If the answer to your mini vacation is no, it's time to have a frank conversation about time balance as even stay at home time is work.

  12. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    I am curious if there are any stay at home dads here? Despite our society trying to be more gender equal, when I take the kids to the children's museum on a Monday it seems 95% moms and 5% dads. This despite the fact woman increasingly have better, and higher paying careers than men.
    This is true, but I've also observed that mother's tend to get more leeway in the the workplace for kid-related responsibilities than father's. It's archaic thinking but still very much a thing. For example, most men barely get to take any paternity leave even if it's available to them (recent studies back this up) because there are job-related repercussions for doing so.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touring_Sedan View Post
    Sounds like a bit more of an indictment of your marriage than your kids?
    No, if both of us are exhausted I'm good at putting in the hard work and not being resentful about it. The more the wife gets breaks, the better she can be as a mom and wife. I enjoy being someone she can always lean on when needed, but yeah I roll my eyes about it sometimes and complain here to see if anyone else can relate. What's actually frustrating is she doesn't take enough time alone in the desert or visiting Jackson friends - I often have to suggest it to her.

  14. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    For example, most men barely get to take any paternity leave even if it's available to them (recent studies back this up) because there are job-related repercussions for doing so.
    I wonder how much is because they want to avoid the job-related repercussions that women traditionally face for maternity leave that is a cause of the pay gap. I was lucky when i took my leave because i was in a situation where i knew that my leave would highlight my importance/value and there was no risk of being Wally-pipped. There is another guy in the company who is a known low performer that is planning to take the full PL and if i was in his shoes i would not be super comfortable taking that much time off and allowing someone else to fill the role as it would just highlight how replaceable i am. He is likely to get wally-pipped.


    As a family, my wife doesnt like doing things alone (type A+ extrovert), while i love doing things alone (introvert). So i make sure to take time every week to do something that recharges my batteries (usually alone), while my wife gets her batteries recharged by socializing with other moms/families, etc. Ive gone waaaaaaay out of my way to encourage her to get back into MTB/skiing/climbing/acrobatics but she doesnt NEED that kind of thing the way that i do. So, now i just give her the freedom to do that stuff and make it clear that i will drop my plans nearly anytime to allow her to do those things if a situation presents itself.

  15. #1065
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    Where is iceman with the stay at home dad talk? Seems like he got two successful kids out the door.

    I really enjoy being the primary caregiver. My wife still struggles with the fact that she lost almost a year of her career to a difficult pregnancy and then breastfeeding. When her milk dried up and she was able to stop pumping it was a relief. I donít mind that sometimes she shies away from the messy parts of child rearing because she is a thoughtful and kind mother and an empathetic partner. We were open and honest about our expectations for each other before we started trying to conceive. If it were only up to me we would have at least another biological child but for many reasons we will look to adopt instead.

    Some of the afternoons spent playing with the same toys, the same way, are grueling. But every new skill, concept, and milestone are the rewards. There is a great post earlier in this thread about a dad deciding hiking with his kids everyday was essential for his own and the familyís well being. We hike a lot and try to get out of the house daily. Changing my expectations for what is a day out seems realistic to me, even if I donít always get it right the first try. I do my best to find joy in our activities for both myself and my sonís sake. We have just as good of a time at the public library or a museum as we do in the mountains. We made a choice to bring him here and I try my best to do right by him.

    Going out and there being mostly moms isnít an issue, I would say the ratio in SLC is often closer 1: 5. I havenít yet experienced the issue of moms thinking playdates are an excuse for me to hit on them, same with school insisting on only calling my very busy wife, but I am mentally prepared. Everywhere we go people are excited to see my son and he them. Mothers come up to us and interact with their children just as readily as fathers.

    One of the things I hope for the future is that our economy is able to pivot so that population growth isnít an essential concept for societal growth. Reading this thread, it seems like many of you may have made a different decision.

  16. #1066
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    Its taken a while for the honesty to rear its head in this thread.

    Kudos to Bio for having the courage to bring it out in the open.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  17. #1067
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    Children bring us joy... but they don't do much for making us happy.


  18. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    Children bring us joy... but they don't do much for making us happy.

    Preach!

  19. #1069
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    If anyone is feeling down about their parenting style, or the fact that reality is not living up to what they see their friends post on social media, I can tell some stories to make you feel better.

  20. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio-smear View Post
    A final thought, and this one could get ugly.

    Dudes, before you make that fateful creampie that will change your life forever, conduct an honest audit of your mate. Silently, of course.

    Does she do most stuff without asking your opinion first?
    Does she cook meals on her own? Can she vs does she?
    Does she have some measure of autonomy or hobbies that are her own?
    Is she a good/safe driver?

    You could make this list as long as you need. See the "Jesus Hercules Christ I Love My Wife and All" thread.

    It's an assessment that needs to be made. I see my buddy's life and it's a little different. His wife is a super mom and LOVES it.
    Sometimes you don't get to make that choice, to make that assessment. Ask me how I know.

    I didn't carefully read the last few pages, but I did have one question for you: have you seen a therapist? I saw someone recommended family counseling, but a professional could help you sort through the mixed emotions.

    I was a wreck and very slow to accept that I was going to be a dad, and very slow to accept my new changed life as a dad. But ultimately I did, and ultimately I fell madly in love with my kid. But it didn't happen overnight.

    And this thread is just like social media, people put their best lives in here, until your post. There's nothing wrong with that, sharing stoke is the very fabric of this site, but sharing struggles is too. So I am glad you posted, because it has opened this thread up. Posting about the great things is awesome. Posting about the struggles is awesome too (not the struggles, but the sense of "I am not alone" is so helpful).
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "I'd eat a bag of Dicks and wash it down with a Coke any day." - iceman

  21. #1071
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    And always keep in mind the CTFD parenting method. It works.

    https://jezebel.com/the-ctfd-method-...ends-816536389

  22. #1072
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    I haven't read this thread in awhile. Wow, things got good and real! So many great thoughts relayed on the both sides of the parenting equation. It's a thankless, hard and grinding job that just evolves fast enough to keep you winging it at times and always on your feet. I feel bad for those that are miserable in the role. Those feelings will ebb and flow over time so just take it day by day and focus on the doing the best you can - or just good enough. Maybe you'll settle in more than you realize and once they are older, you'll find yourself enjoying more moments of time with them than you did in the past.

    I so regretted our second boy when he started off the bat with colic. He screamed and cried for 12 hours a day for everyday between four weeks and five months old. Holding him swaddled up, rocking him, leaving by himself in the crib - he cried. He took a few breaks here and there, but always on the verge. Then had what I call post-colic for the next 12 months where he was still mostly perturbed and moody. Eventually, that morphed into night terrors every night for four fucking years. He had episodes starting around 10pm, that came in intervals that would resolve usually by 2 am (hopefully). Not a thing we could do about it and we truly lost our sanity at times. I still can't believe we went through that. Now he is still a bull-headed, I'm always right type of kid, but so much better. And when he's not tormenting his younger brother or starting shit up in our family - is actually my favorite kid to hang with as he's got a contagious laugh and a fair amount of charisma. Point being that things can be dark, but improve and get better.

    I resisted kids initially as it would interfere with my lifestyle, but we bit the bullet and now have three boys age 9 to 13. I've been working part-time remotely for my firm going on 11 years now and have been their primary caregiver through infancy, pre-school co-op and now into school. We never had a nanny, family or really much for baby-sitting which I realize was probably a mistake - I should have leaned on out-sourcing a bit more than I did as I was probably around them more than was good for my own health. Turns out, I enjoyed taking care of them more than I thought, realized I was actually pretty good at turning off my envy of those getting after it all the time and it's worked pretty well. But, I also have a temper and lack of patience which I know has soured some aspects of my relationship with them- especially my middle and youngest. It's a mixed bag. Somehow, they still want me to coach their sport teams, sit by me on the chairlift and are happy when I spend time with them, but I know I've probably created a few more negative memories for them of me than if I had worked full-time and not been around as much. It bugs me a bit, but at the same time, I feel it is a gift to be able to be so present with them. Hopefully it all meters out on the positive side in the end.

    I toasted my career advancement a bit intentionally since my wife is the bread-winner and am mostly ok with it, but at times feel uncertain. I'm not sure how long my employer is going to allow me to stagnate in my current role and I can't/don't want to go back to work full-time as my wife has crazy, unpredictable hours and I'm needed to do most of the house and kid managing. Someone asked about SAHD's and our own societies views. I haven't encountered many direct comments, but I'll be honest, having a small professional career on the side has helped my psyche in terms of societal expectations, but it's really lame that I even felt that I needed to have that role - I think I've almost held onto it because of that, as we could probably swing it financially without me working. Weird how that works.

    Hang in there Dad's, know that it's a marathon, not a sprint and that your own thoughts and feelings may evolve as you continue to wade through parenthood. I know mine are.

  23. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I wonder how much is because they want to avoid the job-related repercussions that women traditionally face for maternity leave that is a cause of the pay gap.
    I suspect so. It's really a shitty deal for both men and women but it seems like no one wants to discuss the raw deal that dads sometimes have to deal with. I barely took any paternity leave for my second and third kids (maybe a handful of days total) but that was the result of being a partner at a small, growing tech company. Plus I work from home so I was still around to help. Now that we're larger, more stable and have a lot more backup / redundancy I pretty much force the younger new dads to take their several weeks of time off... and we tend to do this somewhat visibly so everyone else knows that this is coming from the top down.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  24. #1074
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    My wife and I are currently fighting about what to do about the kid up the street. She says, i don't want to let our kid go to his house, and he can't come to our house. 10 year old boys. The other kid, is in the same class, plays on the hockey team (I'm coach) and literally lives half a block up the hill. He has a sport court where he and several other kids from the neighborhood and the hockey team go to play street hockey.
    I think blocking the kid out out is destined for failure and deceit from our kid. Asking him to block the kid out puts my boy in an impossible position that will lead to him lying to us to go over there and play street hockey, and force us into being assholes and not allowing the one kid in our house when the kids come this way. I think we need to engage and have the other kid around to where we can see and understand the dynamics better, and influence them.
    I fucking hate these discussions because it quickly turns into a fight, that i don't respect her side of the argument, and it quickly becomes not about the issue at hand, but about how she and i have different ideas about parenting and solving problems.
    So yeah.

    This was all brought about by a note from the teacher today who said he is slipping into habits at school that are negative after having had a great fall, and a strong report card in Jan. He and the other kid along with a red have been in and out of trouble all fall.
    sigless.

  25. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by basinbeater View Post
    My wife and I are currently fighting about what to do about the kid up the street. She says, i don't want to let our kid go to his house, and he can't come to our house. 10 year old boys. The other kid, is in the same class, plays on the hockey team (I'm coach) and literally lives half a block up the hill. He has a sport court where he and several other kids from the neighborhood and the hockey team go to play street hockey.
    I think blocking the kid out out is destined for failure and deceit from our kid. Asking him to block the kid out puts my boy in an impossible position that will lead to him lying to us to go over there and play street hockey, and force us into being assholes and not allowing the one kid in our house when the kids come this way. I think we need to engage and have the other kid around to where we can see and understand the dynamics better, and influence them.
    I fucking hate these discussions because it quickly turns into a fight, that i don't respect her side of the argument, and it quickly becomes not about the issue at hand, but about how she and i have different ideas about parenting and solving problems.
    So yeah.

    This was all brought about by a note from the teacher today who said he is slipping into habits at school that are negative after having had a great fall, and a strong report card in Jan. He and the other kid along with a red have been in and out of trouble all fall.
    Have your wife have an honest discussion with your kid and ask WTF is up at school ? Tell your kid to get it together or have consequences of losing things that are important to him. In my experience social engineering like what your wife is proposing never works, it usually just leads to deceit and lying. Also remind her there is a 50/50 chance your kid is the instigator of "bad" behavior.
    I have 3 grown kids and my BIGGEST fear when they were young was one or more of them would end up with a friend group like I had as a kid but luckily I dodged that bullet.

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