Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[climberevan]

I haven't used it on the front and probably wouldn't but I have been amazed by the grip of the 2.2 Racing Ralph I stole from my GF. It consistently surprises me. Our local trails are all DG, fwiw.

[VTskibum]

^^ yes the Racing Ralphs do surprisingly well also and still really light in Snakeskin compound. Have not had issues flatting them mostly up front.


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[sethschmautz]

Finally got a good test in on Tuesday of last week. Got a good 20 minute warmup and then did a hard 20 minute climb working as hard as I could. I started the 20 minute interval at about 163bpm. I understand better now why it is helpful to do this on a long hill.

The last 2/5s or so I was able to maintain 168-171 consistently. It was hard but I didn't feel like I was going to die at the end of the 20 minutes. 168-169 was hard but sustainable. 170+ felt really hard and not sustainable for long periods.

Average HR during the interval was 167. Is my threshold 167 or, as some suggested, a few bpms below that?

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[climberevan]

Finally got a good test in on Tuesday of last week. Got a good 20 minute warmup and then did a hard 20 minute climb working as hard as I could. I started the 20 minute interval at about 163bpm. I understand better now why it is helpful to do this on a long hill.

The last 2/5s or so I was able to maintain 168-171 consistently. It was hard but I didn't feel like I was going to die at the end of the 20 minutes. 168-169 was hard but sustainable. 170+ felt really hard and not sustainable for long periods.

Average HR during the interval was 167. Is my threshold 167 or, as some suggested, a few bpms below that?

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I'd guess it's around 168 because it sounds like you could have gone a little harder for the 20 mins since you weren't doubled over. What does intervals.icu say?

A couple of bpm won't matter much anyway, since you're always targeting zones for intervals.

In case it hasn't been mentioned, you should get a power meter. Stages or 4iiii crankarms are about $350 same work well. Also (like all serious racers) you'll want to do much of your real training on the road so you can control intensity.

[climberevan]

JFC, low-fat dairy products? Protein is great but it's not fuel. Don't make me post that Dave Tate story again. Are you getting fat? If not, keep stuffing that pie hole

Whoop does not measure glucose. Actual continuous glucose monitors are a PITA in general and Rx-only (https://prescriptionhope.com/blog-do...ucose-monitor/). If you're not diabetic your doctor probably won't prescribe one and insurance certainly won; cover it, and they're not cheap IIRC.

Yep. Fuel the work with carbs as we've been telling you. I still think you're eating too much protein and def too much animal products. Eat plants.

Interestingly on the glucose monitor front: Chris Froome has a YouTube show (of course), and he talks about using one while training. It is linked to an app and he can monitor his blood sugar in real time while riding and consume calories appropriately. I'm guessing Israel Start Up Nation isn't constrained by budget or prescription concerns, but it sure is nifty. I would love to see the data that thing produces on grand tour stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CszDif6oe2U

[bean]

Yep. Fuel the work with carbs as we've been telling you. I still think you're eating too much protein and def too much animal products. Eat plants.

There's no such thing as too much protein, and animal products have better bioavailability of various nutrients. I wouldn't go full-blown 'carnivore' other than as a short-term elimination diet, but vegan-as-healthier advocates have almost everything wrong.

Something to think about when training and fueling is what the ultimate goal is. If you're after peak performance then yes, you're going to need to load up on carbs (and protein) - but to what end? I'm past the point in my life where I'm trying to maximize race performance, and the focus is a lot more on general health, fitness, and longevity. I get bloodwork done regularly and my worst insulin resistance was when I was training for a sub-3 marathon, and eating appropriately to get there.

[rod9301]

What test do you use for insulin resistance?

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[climberevan]

There's no such thing as too much protein, and animal products have better bioavailability of various nutrients. I wouldn't go full-blown 'carnivore' other than as a short-term elimination diet, but vegan-as-healthier advocates have almost everything wrong.

Something to think about when training and fueling is what the ultimate goal is. If you're after peak performance then yes, you're going to need to load up on carbs (and protein) - but to what end? I'm past the point in my life where I'm trying to maximize race performance, and the focus is a lot more on general health, fitness, and longevity. I get bloodwork done regularly and my worst insulin resistance was when I was training for a sub-3 marathon, and eating appropriately to get there.

This is the "Official sprocket rockets Training thread", so it's explicitly aimed at performance. It's not the "How be generally healthy and live a long life" thread. I agree that those two things are not in perfect alignment. Riding 20+ hours a week and eating the 5-6000kCal/day of largely carbs necessary to fuel that is not really "healthy", but it is the way to be fast on the bike, if that's your priority.

I'm pretty sure WG is fairly young, and is definitely interested in performance for racing--he's been very clear about that.

Re: Protein: As with anything, there is very much such a thing as too much. https://www.health.harvard.edu/nutri...ch-is-too-much

The fact is that there is zero performance benefit to eating more than what's needed, which is widely regarded as about 1.5g protein per kg of body weight per day for endurance athletes. It's very easy to get that amount in a mostly plant based diet, especially if one is training enough to need 4000+kCal/day. (I'm not vegan and don't aspire to be, but it's indisputable that a mostly plant based diet is better for the environment and for one's health and performance). No additional "low fat" animal protein sources are needed.

https://www.triathlete.com/nutrition...ance-athletes/

Dylan Johnson's takes, backed up by science as always: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InF6nuTXzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGGnnPgtzoU

[huckbucket]

If I'm training 8 hours a week in Z1 should I be consuming 4,000 calories a day? Asking for a friend.

[Dantheman]

Evan-

Based on your 80 g CHO/hr fueling strategy I ran an experiment yesterday. Ate breakfast as normal at 8:00, did shit around the house all morning, then started a ride at the crack of 1:00 having eaten nothing since breakfast and in the heat of the day (it was only 72* in Park City, but damn that sun is strong right now, was sweating my balls off). Fueled with nothing but DIY Tailwind for 11.7 mi/2,600 vert. Fell short of 80 g/hr (consumed ~120 g CHO in 2.5 hrs of moving time) but still felt fucking great. Felt like I could have gone a lot longer and only stopped since I had to get home for family obligations. Feel great today, too.

[VTskibum]

Have a few racer buddies who do morning long/steady-pace fasted rides and only fuel on the bike or at half-way point. I feel like shit w/o something to at least prime the pump, so will do oatmeal beforehand on those. I would sometimes do black coffee and easy rollers pre-dawn spin before a harder fueled workout later in the day. Think there's some science behind it as well, especially around getting your metabolism primed.

[Skistack]

What test do you use for insulin resistance?

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You drink this nasty-ass glucose drink and then they test your blood glucose and insulin levels. High glucose + high insulin = insulin resistance.


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[rod9301]

Yeah, i did this too.

Which lab did you use?

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[sethschmautz]

I'd guess it's around 168 because it sounds like you could have gone a little harder for the 20 mins since you weren't doubled over. What does intervals.icu say?

A couple of bpm won't matter much anyway, since you're always targeting zones for intervals.

In case it hasn't been mentioned, you should get a power meter. Stages or 4iiii crankarms are about $350 same work well. Also (like all serious racers) you'll want to do much of your real training on the road so you can control intensity.

I'm not positive where I should look in Intervals.icu to calculate my threshold? Should I look at the workout above that is imported or elsewhere?

I can definitely see the benefit of a power meter. The delay in feedback is a little annoying to make sure I'm in the right zone, but I'm thinking that I might be able to learn and gauge effort in other ways - how my legs feel, perceived respiration rate under load, etc. That said, I've started to keep my eyes out. I have a SRAM Force carbon crankset. Least expensive option I can find is to have 4iii install a meter in my crank arm but if anybody knows of a good alternative that doesn't leave me without a left crank arm for that time I'm all ears (I do have a SRAM XO crankset in a box that looks a lot like the Force crankset - maybe they are the same and I could just borrow the left arm from that crankset).

Seth

[joetron]

My Rotor power cranks have instant, 10 sec avg and 30 sec avg available when I set them up with my Garmin.
I ran at instant for a while but it fluctuates so much it’s kinda useless. 10sec avg is good data


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[climberevan]

My Rotor power cranks have instant, 10 sec avg and 30 sec avg available when I set them up with my Garmin.
I ran at instant for a while but it fluctuates so much it’s kinda useless. 10sec avg is good data


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I think those metrics are created by the head unit. My Lezyne can show instant, 3s, 10s, 30s, and a long list of other stuff. I don't think it matters which power meter is sending.

I agree that instant is useless. I usually use 3s, but am going to experiment with 10s.

[Tailwind]

Question on recovery. I went for a pretty fast paced 4 hour ride on Monday, conditions were nasty which may be a factor. Heavy rain that turned to snow and temps dropped into the 20’s.

I had ridden 7 days in a row, so I took Tuesday off. Then Wednesday I got out and just spun around for about an hour (legs felt dead). Thursday I tried to do intervals but my legs also felt dead so I kept it short but I was feeling frustrated that I wasn’t able to get quality rides in. Thursday night I spent about 30 minutes with on the foam roller which hurt more the longer I went. Friday I rode and felt great. I took 40 seconds off a 11 minute climb I’ve ridden 40+ times over the last few years.

I think I probably had linked together to many days on the bike. I did around 20k of climbing that weekend, after some intervals the week before. I just had some time and I was excited to ride.

Question comes down to rolling. I’m now convinced it may be magic... how often to people roll / stretch while training? I’ve always neglected that.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I definitely feel groggy when I do a ton of carbs. I should probably figure out a happy medium for me on days I am training/riding and days I'm resting. Depending on price I may consult an actual nutritionist.

I had a weird experience last weekend. BBQ with friends and didn't eat much. A burger with no bun (been gluten free for 4+ years....would have had a bun if there were any). A handful of chips. Some baked beans. Mostly soda water and one sugary pelligrino drink. Tiny bit of ice cream.

Went to bed and realized I was starving. Was staying at a friend's and didn't want to go raid his fridge at midnight so I just stayed starving until I fell asleep. When I woke up in the AM I felt really really good. Clear headed and alert. Like I really needed that.

Ate some oatmeal with yogurt and coffee. Went for a ski tour and felt awesome.


Was that a taste of intermittent fasting?

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[huckbucket]

Gravel race yesterday. Was basically a 2 hour TT. Hit a max HR that I don't think I've seen in the last 5 years. No power on that bike unfortunately. Super fun.

[Dantheman]

Since it came up here recently, the first half of this has some interesting discussion regarding continuous glucose monitoring and Type 2 diabetes/pre-diabetes in people who don't fit the typical profile:

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/michael-snyder

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Since it came up here recently, the first half of this has some interesting discussion regarding continuous glucose monitoring and Type 2 diabetes/pre-diabetes in people who don't fit the typical profile:

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/michael-snyder

Just came in to post this:

I got my regular annual check-up and bloodwork done today. 9-10 hour fasting Glucose was 102. That's pretty high for fasting.

I really don't eat sweets, I haven't had booze in 10+ years, etc. I don't know my family history at all, so possibly pre-disposed to diabetes?

I would have no problem reducing or eliminating sugar altogether. I tried it once before for a month about 6 or 7 years ago.

Can you go no sugar and still have the ability to do sprint/high HR type of activities? Will my body just adapt? I bet you my little gut will vanish. Guess my body doesn't need much sugar coming in to run into a problem......factor in riding/training and eating gels, blocks, sandwiches with Jelly/honey.....

Not good.

[rod9301]

It's not just sugar, it's carbohydrates

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[Whiteroom_Guardian]

It's not just sugar, it's carbohydrates

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So as I posted not too long ago I was pretty low carb and doing lots of protein. I was training a lot and hungry all the time so my coach suggested I up my carbs.

Maybe I need to fluctuate and try the train low/race high method?

I looked into nutritionists here and there is literally like one lady in town and she has a waitlist.

I think I am probably a good candidate for continuous glucose monitoring, no?

I had blood work done last July and my Glucose was 96.....not very far below the unhealthy mark of 99.

[sethschmautz]

Been doing the training plan for a few cycles and liking it. I've been looking at adding a "fun" week in there between the Intensity week and the volume week, but otherwise am liking the structured approach and have been learning and growing (and getting into better shape!). Thanks for all of the recommendations and help.

The ride that I'm focusing my training on is August 21 or 22 (can't recall), so 6 weeks away (two cycles). Intensity week starts up again next week and the week before the event is a rest week. The ride is roughly 90 miles and 8200' of climbing. Should I be doing anything to tailor my training over the next 6 weeks to add more climbing or mileage? I've been doing a bit of this already - trying to get a big ride in (50-70 miles and 4-5000' climbing) during my intensity and volumes weeks with the intention that I would ramp up really close to what I'm going to ride during the event. At most, though, this is one of these rides each of 2 out of 3 weeks.

Last question is that 1 week prior to the event is a 12/24 hour event. I'm considering doing the 12 hour event with a friend which should get me about 50 miles and 8000' of mountain biking. Bad idea so close to the event?

Thanks!

Seth

[Dantheman]

So as I posted not too long ago I was pretty low carb and doing lots of protein. I was training a lot and hungry all the time so my coach suggested I up my carbs.

Maybe I need to fluctuate and try the train low/race high method?

I looked into nutritionists here and there is literally like one lady in town and she has a waitlist.

I think I am probably a good candidate for continuous glucose monitoring, no?

I had blood work done last July and my Glucose was 96.....not very far below the unhealthy mark of 99.

I missed this the first time. Going very low carb for extended periods causes physiological insulin resistance in peripheral tissues--your body reduces the ability of your muscles and liver to take up glucose so that it's available for your brain. This leads to relatively high fasting glucose levels.

Most of the CGM companies now have networks of doctors they can refer you to if a local doctor won't prescribe you one. Should be no problem doing this with a virtual visit these days. I think the newest 23andMe tests include the genes known to predispose you to diabetes. Do you have a family history?