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  1. #151
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    Thank you for the detailed info. This is really helpful! The kids will not have heartrate monitors, so will have to go off of feel. Is it fair to say a base ride is at moderate sustained intensity? I.e. an average ride without pushing it? Should we try to ramp up the longer rides with each cycle (i.e. increase from 8 hours to 10-12 hours for the second cycle)? I'm going to be helping 3-4 of them train and will take a look at the video and try to keep it fun.

    One of the good things that came out of Covid and indoor sports getting canceled, was that my daughter and some of her friends joined the GHS Mtb bike team. Some of those kids, their parents don't ride so good to get them the exposure. Most of them really liked it and are hoping to ride for their HS team in the fall. We've looked at GBX, I've heard great things. I think its already full for the summer. Thanks again!



    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    I spent years working with the BJC program and I cannot emphasis this aspect enough. Even with our juniors whom are racing at a national level, most of the training is games, relay races, skills, etc. This is especially important for riders less than 16 years old.

    When a rider reaches 16 or so (a little different for each) then I believe you can begin adding some more traditional volume.

    Because of this, I would not recommend doing the block periodization with the Intensity Week, Volume Week, Recovery week as I described.

    However, I do believe you can do a 2 week on; 1 week off scheme where you hold volume moderate and vary intensity.

    For Example:
    Week 1:
    8 hours riding total.
    -1 long ride of 2-3 hours
    -2 workouts of an hour (one more skills focused, one more hard riding focused)
    - 2 easy rides of about an hour

    Week 2
    Total Riding ~8 hours
    -1 long ride of 2-3 hours
    -2 workouts of an hour (Both hard-riding focused)
    - 2 Base rides of about an hour

    Week 3:
    Total Riding: 5 hours
    -3 Base Rides of about 1 hour
    -2 skills days that are challenging, fun, but not taxing.

    For skills:
    We do all sorts of fun, silly things in addition to the traditional like wheelies and techy climbs.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVO...MYQjyww/videos

    If your daughter and her friends are enjoying cycling, I'll plug the local junior teams.
    https://www.gbxjrs.com/
    www.boulderjuniorcycling.org

    It's incredible to see kids thrive when they're with their peers!

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by slcdawg View Post
    Thank you for the detailed info. This is really helpful! The kids will not have heartrate monitors, so will have to go off of feel. Is it fair to say a base ride is at moderate sustained intensity? I.e. an average ride without pushing it? Should we try to ramp up the longer rides with each cycle (i.e. increase from 8 hours to 10-12 hours for the second cycle)? I'm going to be helping 3-4 of them train and will take a look at the video and try to keep it fun.
    !
    With kids it's so hard to say what an appropriate HR range is without testing.

    I'd, personally, go on feel and observation. See how they're doing on those longer rides. You want them to enjoy them, be working but not too hard. If you get home and they lay around (more than normal...) for the rest of the day then it was too hard. Once you have that figured out, then see what the HR's are. In other words the HR is descriptive of the effort, not prescriptive.

    Similar theory in terms of extending the hours. If they're champing to ride more, then go for it within reason. 20% is typically the "safe" increase in weekly volume; so if they seem like they WANT to ride 9.5hrs then great. But, again, it's not about prescribing that they have to ride 9.5 the second round. I really see no need for kids to be riding more than 10 hours / week.

    For junior athletes, performance is more related to the length and intensity of their quality session(s), not their over-all volume. Because of this, if they seem ready for progression, I would do it through the increase in interval number / length / total time moreso than large increases in total weekly volume.

    Also, Keep in mind that these are formative years for building general athleticism, bone strength, etc. I would continue to encourage a variety of sports / activities / exercises. Obstacle courses, Ultimate Frisbee, etc. are great for fitness, strength, bone mass, etc.

  3. #153
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    Thank you, Pickels! This is good info.


    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    With kids it's so hard to say what an appropriate HR range is without testing.

    I'd, personally, go on feel and observation. See how they're doing on those longer rides. You want them to enjoy them, be working but not too hard. If you get home and they lay around (more than normal...) for the rest of the day then it was too hard. Once you have that figured out, then see what the HR's are. In other words the HR is descriptive of the effort, not prescriptive.

    Similar theory in terms of extending the hours. If they're champing to ride more, then go for it within reason. 20% is typically the "safe" increase in weekly volume; so if they seem like they WANT to ride 9.5hrs then great. But, again, it's not about prescribing that they have to ride 9.5 the second round. I really see no need for kids to be riding more than 10 hours / week.

    For junior athletes, performance is more related to the length and intensity of their quality session(s), not their over-all volume. Because of this, if they seem ready for progression, I would do it through the increase in interval number / length / total time moreso than large increases in total weekly volume.

    Also, Keep in mind that these are formative years for building general athleticism, bone strength, etc. I would continue to encourage a variety of sports / activities / exercises. Obstacle courses, Ultimate Frisbee, etc. are great for fitness, strength, bone mass, etc.

  4. #154
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    Xtra, I need some advice.

    I had a really great 3 weeks riding in Moab and St George and am feeling like I'm starting the season strong. I have a gravel grinder on August 22nd. The ride is 78 miles with 8700 feet of climbing and I want to build from where I'm at currently.

    Generally, my weeks will have a hard group (mountain bike) ride on Monday nights right around 1.5 hours long. I generally can sneak away for an hour ride at lunch a few days a week and as our days get longer here in Montana will probably need to put in more early mornings and late evenings to work around time with the family. I can also take advantage of a fairly flat 20 mile commute to/from work also to get some intervals in.

    How would you suggest structuring my training this summer to arrive at the ride on 8/22 at my strongest? Thanks in advance.

    Seth

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  5. #155
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    Xtra,

    I had a revelation in my training this last winter in terms of seeing the value of alpine skiing as it relates to endurance sports. Tell me if I'm wrong in assessment...

    I am 41 and coming up on 5 years of consistent training here next month. I long ago nabbed the low hanging fruit and have been battling the laws of diminishing returns for a few years now. Work and family being the obvious time restrictors to my training ambitions.

    I'll back up a few months: Nov-Jan running block with 2 months in Hawaii chasing Strava segments while on long break from work. Fun! Managed a 17 min 5k time trial segment win!

    January 10 I started back house framing here in the cold 6-8 hours a day. Normally I can balance cold work hours with solid Zwift sessions at night indefinitely, it keeps me sane actually. This year was different as I decided to prioritize DH skiing for the first time since really getting after endurance training.

    I would work until 3, ski until 5 go home and try to Zwift later in the evening and every time my legs felt dead, played out. I was maxing my daily capability and trying to avoid burnout. Tour Du Zwift almost killed me... lol. I followed my gut and eased back on the Zwifting and just skied as the snow was good.

    I than the realization that DH skiing is actual HIIT training! 3-5 min of hard leg effort with hard rest between runs. It explained exactly how I felt and I rolled with it. I treated it like a 3 month HIIT block. I would still do real easy Zwift sessions 30-40 minutes a few nights a week.

    Coming into TOW I made solid effort to NOT ski the week coming into the races and had awesome results, new FTP, solid results in general that felt like genuine break through of long plateau. The last 2 weeks I have been suffering the painful transition back to running legs. I have all the power from skiing and aerobic engine from biking but leg speed is lacking, aiming for a 5k race next week. Breaking 18 might be a challenge, we will see...

    just my .02 as skiing might be good for something in this application!

  6. #156
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    Since this thread likes training nerd topics, interesting post about "The New Science of ďFatigue Resistance," including the difference between U23 riders development tier and pros: https://www.outsideonline.com/242246...tance-research

    If you like the article/topic, I highly recommend the author of the article's book, "Endure: Mind, Body, and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance" It's not cycling-specific but is fascinating: http://amzn.to/2GMlFWo

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpathian View Post
    Xtra,

    I had a revelation in my training this last winter in terms of seeing the value of alpine skiing as it relates to endurance sports. Tell me if I'm wrong in assessment...

    I am 41 and coming up on 5 years of consistent training here next month. I long ago nabbed the low hanging fruit and have been battling the laws of diminishing returns for a few years now. Work and family being the obvious time restrictors to my training ambitions.

    I'll back up a few months: Nov-Jan running block with 2 months in Hawaii chasing Strava segments while on long break from work. Fun! Managed a 17 min 5k time trial segment win!

    January 10 I started back house framing here in the cold 6-8 hours a day. Normally I can balance cold work hours with solid Zwift sessions at night indefinitely, it keeps me sane actually. This year was different as I decided to prioritize DH skiing for the first time since really getting after endurance training.

    I would work until 3, ski until 5 go home and try to Zwift later in the evening and every time my legs felt dead, played out. I was maxing my daily capability and trying to avoid burnout. Tour Du Zwift almost killed me... lol. I followed my gut and eased back on the Zwifting and just skied as the snow was good.

    I than the realization that DH skiing is actual HIIT training! 3-5 min of hard leg effort with hard rest between runs. It explained exactly how I felt and I rolled with it. I treated it like a 3 month HIIT block. I would still do real easy Zwift sessions 30-40 minutes a few nights a week.

    Coming into TOW I made solid effort to NOT ski the week coming into the races and had awesome results, new FTP, solid results in general that felt like genuine break through of long plateau. The last 2 weeks I have been suffering the painful transition back to running legs. I have all the power from skiing and aerobic engine from biking but leg speed is lacking, aiming for a 5k race next week. Breaking 18 might be a challenge, we will see...

    just my .02 as skiing might be good for something in this application!
    Yeah-
    Depending on the skiing, it can certainly function similar to a HIIT / Strength session.

    I think you did the right thing in dialing back the riding and keeping it easy. Great job listening to those dead legs and not trying to push through it.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Xtra, I need some advice.

    I had a really great 3 weeks riding in Moab and St George and am feeling like I'm starting the season strong. I have a gravel grinder on August 22nd. The ride is 78 miles with 8700 feet of climbing and I want to build from where I'm at currently.

    Generally, my weeks will have a hard group (mountain bike) ride on Monday nights right around 1.5 hours long. I generally can sneak away for an hour ride at lunch a few days a week and as our days get longer here in Montana will probably need to put in more early mornings and late evenings to work around time with the family. I can also take advantage of a fairly flat 20 mile commute to/from work also to get some intervals in.

    How would you suggest structuring my training this summer to arrive at the ride on 8/22 at my strongest? Thanks in advance.

    Seth

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    If it were me, I'd go with a 3-week block periodization rotation. I say this because you're looking to increase fitness while being mindful of family time. Instead of trying to balance riding vs. family each week, this scheme allows you to be present for 2 out of 3 weeks, with one week where you're trying to fit in as much riding as possible.

    Week 1: Intensity (7 to 8 total hours per week)
    - 4 Hard workouts: These should be difficult, but not so devastating that you struggle with the follow-up workouts during the week. Your legs should feel pretty tired by the end of the week, and you should be happy to keep the Sunday longer ride easy.
    Monday- Threshold Intervals (Group ride, go all in with it).
    Tuesday: VO2 Intervals (intervals 8 minutes and less)
    Wednesday: Off
    Thursday: Base ride 1-hour (Keep this easy, ensure you're at base)
    Friday: Threshold Intervals
    Saturday: VO2 Intervals
    Sunday: Longer Base Ride (2+ hours). (Keep this easy, ensure you're at base)'

    Week 2: Volume
    Basically get in as much volume as you can; 2 a day trainer sessions, long rides, whatever you can do. You can do your Monday Group Ride, but try not to crush it. Your legs ought to start off tired, but they ought to "come around" as the week progresses, if they do not begin to feel better, I'd question if you were riding too hard.

    Week 3: Recovery (5 hours per week)
    5 rides, all ~ 1 hour, all base zone.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    If it were me, I'd go with a 3-week block periodization rotation. I say this because you're looking to increase fitness while being mindful of family time. Instead of trying to balance riding vs. family each week, this scheme allows you to be present for 2 out of 3 weeks, with one week where you're trying to fit in as much riding as possible.

    Week 1: Intensity (7 to 8 total hours per week)
    - 4 Hard workouts: These should be difficult, but not so devastating that you struggle with the follow-up workouts during the week. Your legs should feel pretty tired by the end of the week, and you should be happy to keep the Sunday longer ride easy.
    Monday- Threshold Intervals (Group ride, go all in with it).
    Tuesday: VO2 Intervals (intervals 8 minutes and less)
    Wednesday: Off
    Thursday: Base ride 1-hour (Keep this easy, ensure you're at base)
    Friday: Threshold Intervals
    Saturday: VO2 Intervals
    Sunday: Longer Base Ride (2+ hours). (Keep this easy, ensure you're at base)'

    Week 2: Volume
    Basically get in as much volume as you can; 2 a day trainer sessions, long rides, whatever you can do. You can do your Monday Group Ride, but try not to crush it. Your legs ought to start off tired, but they ought to "come around" as the week progresses, if they do not begin to feel better, I'd question if you were riding too hard.

    Week 3: Recovery (5 hours per week)
    5 rides, all ~ 1 hour, all base zone.
    Pickles,

    Thanks a ton for the thoughtful response. Would you have a recommendation on a resource for calculating my zones? Training Peaks seems to have 5 (7, really) hr zones but I'm not sure which zones might align with the base, threshold and VO2 intervals mentioned above.

    I may be asking the wrong question here, but being such a training newb I'm trying to figure out how to define and measure that I'm doing Threshold intervals, VO2 intervals or are in the "base" zone so I follow this plan appropriately.

    Thanks in advance,

    Seth

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  10. #160
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    Have you done an FTP test recently? I believe most people build their base/threshold/VO2 numbers on that. Training Peaks will calculate your zones for you if you do one. Of course, HR and FTP correlate, but it seems like most people are building plans around watts and not HR now. But listen to Pickles as I could be wrong. I just figured I'd offer that before asking him this question based on the plan he suggested for you:

    In running, it was always my understanding that when I had a long race (marathon or longer) coming up I'd follow a plan to build up mileage/vert until I was nearly approximating my race. Is it assumed in your answer to Seth that he'd be using week 2 to do that? Or is that less important in biking than running?

    edit to add - I'm waitlisted for the same race as what I think is the same race as you in August, Seth (TLBR?). Will shoot you a PM if I get in.
    Last edited by kathleenturneroverdrive; 05-03-2021 at 11:12 AM.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    Have you done an FTP test recently? I believe most people build their base/threshold/VO2 numbers on that. Training Peaks will calculate your zones for you if you do one. Of course, HR and FTP correlate, but it seems like most people are building plans around watts and not HR now. But listen to Pickles as I could be wrong. I just figured I'd offer that before asking him this question based on the plan he suggested for you:
    I have the ability to run an FTP test on my smart trainer and can do so. The reason I've been focusing on HR is that while riding outside (gravel and mtbs), I have no power meter to train with. I do, however, use an HR/GPS watch and can keep an eye on HR zones.

    In rereading this thread (I haven't completely finished yet) it seems that there is reference to Seiler's 3 zone system, to a 5 zone system, and even a 10 zone system (I think). I think that each of these systems are generally describing the same thing with a different number of zones. I want to be sure that I set my training targets to align with the zones mentioned above. I'm constructing a set of follow up questions to make sure I understand correctly and will post later after I have those and have done a full reread of the thread.

    Yes, TLBR is the one that I'm talking about. Awesome! If you get in, let me know! Maybe I can draft off of you for a little while. :-)

  12. #162
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    Ahh that all makes sense. Apologies if I missed that. I'm actually doing the same thing riding outside until the power meter I'm looking at comes back in stock (so, like 2023 based on bike supply chain issues). I've just done so many structured workouts in zwift (while wearing a hrm) that I've found what heart rate ranges typically match my base/threshold/VO2 watts.

  13. #163
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    Alright, I made it all the way back through the thread. Took some notes to piece some things together and think I have a better understanding. All of my rides end up funneling into Strava and Training Peaks and I've been keeping an eye on the TP HR zones. From what I can tell, I spend the VAST majority of my time in the Z4-Z5C (see attached as an example of a normal ride). Max HR for me at 42 should be ~178 but I think my actual recorded are a little above that - up to 183. I also feel like I can ride at 150-160 for hours. This feels like a comfortable amount of effort - not easy, but sustainable. If I get much above 165 I start to feel it.
    Resting HR is upper 50s to low 60s. TP suggests that my Threshold is roughly 154 (changes a little per ride).

    Using HR to set my targets, I believe that Base days should be Z2 (124-137bpm).

    Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?

    How long should I recover between these intervals? Sounds like Z1 or Z2 is good for this recovery period, but Xtra himself tries to target Z2.

    Thanks a ton for the info. I feel like I'm getting relatively close to being able to sit down and map this out for myself.

    Seth

    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Alright, I made it all the way back through the thread. Took some notes to piece some things together and think I have a better understanding. All of my rides end up funneling into Strava and Training Peaks and I've been keeping an eye on the TP HR zones. From what I can tell, I spend the VAST majority of my time in the Z4-Z5C (see attached as an example of a normal ride). Max HR for me at 42 should be ~178 but I think my actual recorded are a little above that - up to 183. I also feel like I can ride at 150-160 for hours. This feels like a comfortable amount of effort - not easy, but sustainable. If I get much above 165 I start to feel it.
    Resting HR is upper 50s to low 60s. TP suggests that my Threshold is roughly 154 (changes a little per ride).

    Using HR to set my targets, I believe that Base days should be Z2 (124-137bpm).

    Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?

    How long should I recover between these intervals? Sounds like Z1 or Z2 is good for this recovery period, but Xtra himself tries to target Z2.

    Thanks a ton for the info. I feel like I'm getting relatively close to being able to sit down and map this out for myself.

    Seth

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'd be shocked if your threshold HR is 154, especially if you've seen 183 before. Right around threshold is not a comfortable pace that can be held for hours. It's the absolute maximum that can be held for 1 hour, by definition. In real life, almost no one can really ride at their theoretical threshold for a full hour.

    If you find 150-160 to be sustainable, I'd suggest that that represents your tempo range. (Z3). If going over 165 for long feels unsustainable, your threshold is probably just under that, maybe 163 or so.

    Go out and ride a slight incline as hard as you can go for 20 minutes. Your threshold HR will be a few BPM below the average for that interval.

    For reference, I'm 45 and my threshold HR is 170. I have gotten it to 178 a few times at the end of VO2 intervals, but haven't seen higher recently except running.

    We'll talk about the difference between threshold intervals and VO2 max intervals later.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  15. #165
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    Some of our zwift and the recent real life TT series was how i figured out my LTHR, which really helped me straighten out my zones. Intervals.icu helps too, it will say, "oh, you did 172 bpm avg for 26 minutes so your lthr is probably about 169" for example. And then I custom set my zones in strava so my analysis there seems to make a lot more sense.

    I want to say I used these

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/...setting-zones/

    And yeah if you've seen 183 your lthr is probably in the 170 ballpark.
    Last edited by jamal; 05-03-2021 at 09:13 PM.

  16. #166
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    Thank you both! Going to try to set targets around 170 as threshold and see how that goes.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?
    I'm curious what others say to that question, but Threshold is typically ridden for much longer than a VO2 interval because of the different intensity between the two efforts. There are lots of ways to break up Threshold intervals, but 2 or 3, 20-minute efforts with 10 minutes between efforts is a pretty typical workout.

    V02, as far as I understand, should be extremely difficult/impossible for you to sustain for more than 8 minutes. There are countless VO2 interval workouts out there like 5 sets x 3 minutes, 5x5, 4x8, Tabata style, etc. I'd be curious if someone who knows this stuff better than me has found any science that one type of VO2 interval is more effective than the other?
    Last edited by kathleenturneroverdrive; 05-04-2021 at 11:41 AM.

  18. #168
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    Yeah pretty different, threshold is keeping yourself below your anaerobic threshold, ie, as hard as you can go for an extended period of time, usually taken by 95% of your best 20 minutes. vo2 is more as hard as you can go for 5ish minutes.

    I have a couple of hills around me that I like for vo2 stuff. One is really steep and about 4min to the top, another a little longer but not quite as steep, and then another nice quiet road that takes more like 10-12 minutes. I think the key with anything is a little bit of variety. So sometimes I'll do the pure 4-5min efforts, while last week I was doing 40/20 at what I guessed was high vo2 effort up the longer hill. I got about 11 of those in each time up and did 4 laps. The week before it was kind of a turn my ride into a workout thing where I put in some hard efforts and rest periods while I was out there. Last week I also did a 2x20 workout up to the ski hill so I feel fairly good about my recent riding and training.

    XC mtb race friday and a road/gravel race sunday so I guess I'll see. Probably should have used the trainer/zwift a little more this spring but once I could go ride outside I put it away.
    Last edited by jamal; 05-04-2021 at 02:44 PM.

  19. #169
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    Thanks all - trying to glean as much as I can and put together a workout plan.

    Jamal - when you say "below your aerobic threshold", I'm guessing that this is not the "Threshold" HR that we said may be around 170, above, correct or am I mistaking that? In Training Peaks, when I set my threshold to be 170, I get the following chart. Can you give me a rough idea which zones to target in my Threshold Intervals and also for my VO2 intervals? From the descriptions above I'm thinking Threshold Intervals should be in Z4 whereas VO2 should be in Zone 5A-5C with the different durations as mentioned.

    Will also ensure that these training days have some variety and not the exact same thing each time.

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    A couple of general questions:
    1. On the "Volume" week recommended by XtraPickels, what zone(s) should I focus my efforts in? Does it matter or can I ride in any zone(s) as long as I am riding lots?
    2. In the Recovery week do I need to skip the Monday night group ride knowing that it will be really tough to stay in Z1/Z2?

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamal View Post
    Yeah pretty different, threshold is keeping yourself below your aerobic threshold, ie, as hard as you can go for an extended period of time, usually taken by 95% of your best 20 minutes. vo2 is more as hard as you can go for 5ish minutes.
    Yep. A lot of people like to do "sweet spot" intervals (84-97% FTP) instead of true threshold intensity since they are nearly as effective as threshold (91-105%), but easier to recover from and therefore do more of. These are typically 12-20 mins long, but can be 30 mins.

    VO2 intervals in the 4-8' range are very effective if done hard enough (max effort, pretty much) and show results quickly. Plateaus happen from them though, so you can't do them for months on end and keep improving. HR is not a useful indicator for VO2 intervals since it lags so much. Just go as hard as you can for 5 mins, then rest for 2 mins, then do it again 4 more times. You should be doubled over and nearly unable to control your bike at the end of each work interval.

    Seth, why don't you just do a test and get back to us? We're just a couple of strangers on the internet who are spitballing at what your threshold HR is, but you can definitively answer the question with a one hour ride. Do another 20 min interval after your test and you'll have a solid workout.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Jamal - when you say "below your aerobic threshold", I'm guessing that this is not the "Threshold" HR that we said may be around 170, above, correct or am I mistaking that?

    1. On the "Volume" week recommended by XtraPickels, what zone(s) should I focus my efforts in? Does it matter or can I ride in any zone(s) as long as I am riding lots?
    2. In the Recovery week do I need to skip the Monday night group ride knowing that it will be really tough to stay in Z1/Z2?
    I suspect Jamal meant to say "anaerobic threshold". That's the commonly used number, and is usually just called "threshold". One's actual aerobic threshold is a lot lower and very difficult to measure without scientific equipment. It's not commonly used as a training metric outside of the lab, AFAIK.

    IMO Xtra wants you to ride mostly in Z2 and Z1 for the "volume" weeks. You can probably do a tempo ride in there as well, but the idea is to keep the intensity low so you can ride a lot. A lot depends on the person, of course. I would say, though, that if you're not able to ride for more than 15 hours, you can probably afford to do some more intensity.

    If you really enjoy the group ride I'd say go for it--just pretend that Tuesday is the start of your recovery week. Most people are good with 5-6 days off anyway, so you'll prob still be fine.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  22. #172
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Missoula
    Posts
    1,745
    Yeah that.

    I really noticed that HR lag doing those 40/20s last week to the point where I was wondering if I didn't go hard enough. It would take quite a few to even crack 170 (my threshold is around that). But, at the same time I'm doing upper vo2 power on every one and it's like 30min of total work so I think it's fine. And I definitely felt it the next couple days.

  23. #173
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,138
    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Seth, why don't you just do a test and get back to us? We're just a couple of strangers on the internet who are spitballing at what your threshold HR is, but you can definitively answer the question with a one hour ride. Do another 20 min interval after your test and you'll have a solid workout.
    You got it. The one hour FTP test on the trainer or the "go as hard as you can up the incline for 20 minutes and take your average HR" test?

    I've been sick the last few days but will try to get that done this weekend or early next week if possible. Thanks for the input.

    Seth



    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  24. #174
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    1,848
    Did my first hard hilly road group ride tonight in 2 years. Zwifted w/ a bunch of you this winter and lots of riding lately, but was pleasantly surprised I hung w/ lead group of 4 just like the old training/racing days.

    Found my Max HR is still 181 @42y/o which it's been around for quite a few years. Was great seeing my power numbers pretty much identical to same ride/group from when I was pretty fit 5 years ago.
    13 mile hilly rip legs off portion ~35 minutes out of 1hr ride; Today 3.6w/kg, NP 314w vs 3.7w/kg, 328w from May 2017. Later on that season when I was peaking looks like I was doing same at 4w/kg @ 338w.

    All those training hours for 4-7% gains and I was 5 yrs younger.... not sure how helpful any of that actually is. But I think the takeaway I have from it is that once you gain fitness, it's generally easier to get it back, also that you can ride smarter and only burn matches when needed.

  25. #175
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Evergreen Co
    Posts
    613
    Alright... Iím trying to be more diligent with my training rather than just Ďriding really hardí.

    Any suggestions on how to structure intervals? I have very very basic experience. My current routine is a 1 minute max effort up a 12 percent grade hill by my house then coasting back of the start and going again. I alternate sitting vs standing for efforts. I think this works well... but gosh is it brutal. Anything more refined I should try? Today I tried 40 second max efforts, 20 seconds of recovery then 4 minutes moderate pace repeating for around an hour.

    The goal is a 12mph average in a 100 mile race in August. Working on transitioning to bike fitness now. Iím in good shape but just not currently fast on the bike so Iím working to build some speed.

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