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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    Thanks for all that! I'm not a sweetspot zealot at all so would be interested to see what a polarized plan does in comparison.

    This is probably a super basic question, but if my target is a 120 miles race with a lot of climbing, in a polarized plan would my hard days mostly be the same in terms of duration/intensity for the next few months, but my easy days get longer and longer until I'm close to race length/duration a few weeks out from the event?
    If you follow more of a pyramidal plan in which you incorporate some Zone 4 (just below threshold) then you can add a modest amount of Z4 work per week.
    However, If you follow a true polarized plan, in which your high intensity days are above threshold, then there is only so much you can increase. The Work intervals can't get much longer, but you can add more sets.
    It could look something like this:

    Beginning of Training: 7.5 hours total per week

    Base Days- 4 days (5 hours of base)
    (Days not in any particular order)
    Day 1: 1 Hour
    Day 2: 1 Hour
    Day 3: 1 Hours:
    Day 4: 2

    High Intensity Days: 2.5 hours per week.
    Day 1: 3x 15 minutes Hard with 5 minute recovery. (Plus warm-up, Cooldown, and recovery = total ride time of 1:30 (Zone 5a Interval duration of 45 minutes)
    Day 2: 4 x 5 minutes Harder with 5 minute recovery (Total ride time 1 hour) (Z5b Interval Duration of 20 minutes)

    At the end of Training 12:15 hours total per week.

    Base Days- 4 days (9 hours total)
    Day 1: 1 Hour
    Day 2: 2 Hours
    Day 3: 2 Hours
    Day 4: 4

    High Intensity Days: 3:15 hours per week.
    Day 1: 4x 15 minutes Hard with 5 minute recovery. (Plus warm-up, Cooldown, and recovery = total ride time of 2:00 (Zone 5a Interval duration of 60 minutes)
    Day 2: 5 x 5 minutes Harder with 5 minute recovery (Total ride time 1:15 hour) (Z5b Interval Duration of 25 minutes)

    ClimberEvan- Clarification:
    When we were talking about 80/20 before and I said that it could be closer to 70/30 based on time was based on Workout times. In the example above the "Final week" example is about 27% for the total time of the two interval days.
    However, if we looked at it based on just time in zone, it is much much lower. In this example, total time above threshold is basically 1.5 hours out of 12.25 hour training week, which is a bit over 10% of time. I'll edit above for clarity.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    Damn. Less than 4mins off (~40sec/mile) the world record. Speedy for sure.
    Only 260th in the world for 10,000 meters...

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    Only 260th in the world for 10,000 meters...
    If she listened to you more she'd probably be 60th...

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    If you follow more of a pyramidal plan in which you incorporate some Zone 4 (just below threshold) then you can add a modest amount of Z4 work per week.
    However, If you follow a true polarized plan, in which your high intensity days are above threshold, then there is only so much you can increase. The Work intervals can't get much longer, but you can add more sets.
    It could look something like this:
    Dude, you rock! Thanks so much for this. The only hard part is now that it's warming up I want to go have fun riding my bike vs. do more structured workouts. But I guess you can't help with that dilemma

  5. #130
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    FWIW, I added some Links to researchers, Youtube Channels and Podcasts into the First post.
    I'll continue to update over time.

    Feel free to share anything you have found helpful. I'm very versed in research, but I'm less aware of the Podcasts and Youtube Channels

  6. #131
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    How does keeping and improving mobility work into your training plans? I know for me that one reason I like harder effort mountain biking is that I'm usually moving around more, standing, leaning, twisting etc. This feels so much better on my body than protracted low effort riding where I tend to be in the same position interminably.

  7. #132
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    PED's
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by panchosdad View Post
    How does keeping and improving mobility work into your training plans? I know for me that one reason I like harder effort mountain biking is that I'm usually moving around more, standing, leaning, twisting etc. This feels so much better on my body than protracted low effort riding where I tend to be in the same position interminably.
    I'm not going to lie. I, personally, am terrible at this. These are the things that I know I should do, but with a job, kids, and more riding hours than the average person I just don't get around to mobility.

    Usually when I'm on rougher terrain, I come out of it pretty sore (I have a plate in my collarbone that takes a lot of abuse and a right shoulder that's a bit janky because of it).

    Working with someone like Dee Tidwell would likely be worthwhile. In some regard because paying for a plan gives extra motivation.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    Dude, you rock! Thanks so much for this. The only hard part is now that it's warming up I want to go have fun riding my bike vs. do more structured workouts. But I guess you can't help with that dilemma
    The only thing I can say is to seriously ask yourself how much "performance" means to you. Once you have that answer, I can solve the rest:
    1. If performance doesn't mean anything, then have fun 100% of the time.
    2. If performance is important because it allows you to have more fun, then "train" 70% of the time and have fun 30%
    3. If you either have some big, scary, goals, or genuinely enjoy making other people suffer then you should be training 85% of the time.
    4. If you are going to the Olympics you should be into training 95% of the time.

    Two things to always remember:
    You never need to follow the plan 100% of the time.
    Training and fun can be the same thing.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    PED's
    This is your body...
    This is your body on PEDs...

  11. #136
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    XtrPickels, I really appreciate your sharing your wisdom here. I'm drinking from the firehose and need to go back and read the whole thread from the start, but I have what may be a straightforward question that I'd like to run by you.

    I'm doing the stock "Build me up" training program on Zwift; it's a 12-week program and I'm in the 2nd week. It's only about 5-6 hours per week; if I want to add more training (as opposed to fun rides), what should I do? Long slow distance in Zone 2? More intervals? Or is the right answer different depending on the week?

    Also, it's easier for me to do one 3-hour session than 2 90-minute sessions on different days - it's hard for me to train more than 4 days a week, though there will likely be some cardio, either a fun ride or hiking or something at least one day per week. Is it sub-optimal to do another workout immediately after completing one?

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    XtrPickels, I really appreciate your sharing your wisdom here. I'm drinking from the firehose and need to go back and read the whole thread from the start, but I have what may be a straightforward question that I'd like to run by you.

    I'm doing the stock "Build me up" training program on Zwift; it's a 12-week program and I'm in the 2nd week. It's only about 5-6 hours per week; if I want to add more training (as opposed to fun rides), what should I do? Long slow distance in Zone 2? More intervals? Or is the right answer different depending on the week?
    Looking at this plan, they do the same thing that TrainerRoad seems to do with their plans: There is just too much intensity. I think this is because Intensity plays well on the trainer; shorter sessions that are high intensity are much more engaging when staring at the screen.

    So, I would 100% recommend Zone 2 riding if you are following this plan. In Fact, if you are training 4 days a week I'd probably focus on 2 days of base plus 2 days from the prescribed workouts. Make the base days as long as you have time for.

    Also, it's easier for me to do one 3-hour session than 2 90-minute sessions on different days - it's hard for me to train more than 4 days a week, though there will likely be some cardio, either a fun ride or hiking or something at least one day per week. Is it sub-optimal to do another workout immediately after completing one?
    I'm a bit unclear about the question.
    1. High intensity workouts on subsequent days: This is totally fine.
    2. 3 Hour session is likely more beneficial than 2 x 90 minutes
    3. If you can do 4 days a week:
    a. Long Ride: 3 hours
    b. Base Ride: 1 hour
    c. Zwift Workout 1 hour
    d. Zwift workout 1 hour

    Then that could be great for general riding fitness.

  13. #138
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    Anyone looking for some high intensity training should spend some time on a trampoline with a borderline hyperactive 9 y/o boy. Is Zone eleventy a thing?

    On the mobility thing. You know when you're sitting on your ass in the evening watching a screen? I've found that to be a great time to stretch, roll, and do PT...while continuing to watch TV of course. Laziness is as much an issue as remembering, but setting an alarm removes one barrier and gives me about a 20% chance of actually doing it. Only ends up being a couple days a week, but it's better than nothing.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    Looking at this plan, they do the same thing that TrainerRoad seems to do with their plans: There is just too much intensity. I think this is because Intensity plays well on the trainer; shorter sessions that are high intensity are much more engaging when staring at the screen.

    So, I would 100% recommend Zone 2 riding if you are following this plan. In Fact, if you are training 4 days a week I'd probably focus on 2 days of base plus 2 days from the prescribed workouts. Make the base days as long as you have time for.



    I'm a bit unclear about the question.
    1. High intensity workouts on subsequent days: This is totally fine.
    2. 3 Hour session is likely more beneficial than 2 x 90 minutes
    3. If you can do 4 days a week:
    a. Long Ride: 3 hours
    b. Base Ride: 1 hour
    c. Zwift Workout 1 hour
    d. Zwift workout 1 hour

    Then that could be great for general riding fitness.
    Thanks! Good to hear your thoughts that this is too much intensity. It hasn't seemed like that much to me; I haven't really been hitting my max heart rate since I started, so I have been wondering if maybe my FTP is too low. (I haven't done an actual FTP test; Zwift just set it automatically based on the highest observed 20 minutes of output, which I thought seemed pretty accurate, but maybe not.) I'm pretty happy to add base - it's still rainy and cool here, so watching movies in the garage while doing long rides in Zone 2 is not a hardship. The Snyder cut is 4 hours long anyway, gotta watch it somehow.

    Sorry that other question wasn't clear. I was pretty much asking about 3 hours vs 2 x 90 minutes. Followup, if I wanted/needed to only do 3 days in a given week, is something like this effective?
    Day 1: Long ride (3 hours)
    Day 2: Zwift workout (1 hour)
    Day 4: Zwift workout (1 hour) followed by base ride (1 hour)

    And what constitutes a base ride/long ride in terms of target heart rate? 60-70% of max heart rate?

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    Thanks! Good to hear your thoughts that this is too much intensity. It hasn't seemed like that much to me; I haven't really been hitting my max heart rate since I started, so I have been wondering if maybe my FTP is too low. (I haven't done an actual FTP test; Zwift just set it automatically based on the highest observed 20 minutes of output, which I thought seemed pretty accurate, but maybe not.) I'm pretty happy to add base - it's still rainy and cool here, so watching movies in the garage while doing long rides in Zone 2 is not a hardship. The Snyder cut is 4 hours long anyway, gotta watch it somehow.

    Sorry that other question wasn't clear. I was pretty much asking about 3 hours vs 2 x 90 minutes. Followup, if I wanted/needed to only do 3 days in a given week, is something like this effective?
    Day 1: Long ride (3 hours)
    Day 2: Zwift workout (1 hour)
    Day 4: Zwift workout (1 hour) followed by base ride (1 hour)

    And what constitutes a base ride/long ride in terms of target heart rate? 60-70% of max heart rate?
    Threshold HR is in the neighborhood of 10-15 beats below Max HR. Base HR is another 20-30 beats below threshold.
    For Example:
    a. Max HR ~ 185, Threshold HR ~175, Base Range~ 145-155
    b. Max HR ~ 170, Threshold HR ~ 155, Base Range ~ 125-135bpm.

    If using 95% of 20 minutes to determine threshold wattage, you should be at a completely max effort in which you're doubled over the bars at the end of the 20 minutes.

    Re. The 3 days a week: Yeah, you might be best with one long ride and two shorter harder rides, especially if you can get other low-intensity activity (hiking, etc.).

  16. #141
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    Any thoughts on the Whoop strap or Oura ring? Both stupid gadgetry that tells you things you already know if you're honest and pay attention to your body? I have some serious fitness to rebuild after basically taking a year off. Whoop seems preferable since I'd most likely use it for 6 months then drop it.

  17. #142
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    Pinkbike was fairly down on the ring if you read a bit between the lines and in the comment section.

  18. #143
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    Whoop & Oura measure and base recommendations on Heart Rate Variability, which is promising but currently of minimal or zero use for athletes. The measurements are way too dependent on variables which can't be controlled. HRV measurements are not even remotely repeatable IME, with values changing by 50+% from one minute to the next.

    Many who use such devices swear by them, but the more experienced athletes I've known who are NOT sponsored by them (including myself) find that the recommendations are often way off. They will tell you to train hard when you're obviously tired more than your own self analysis would.

    If you need to, spend the money on a training plan and follow it. Listen to your body, eat right, and don't rely on technology to show the way.

    https://www.uphillathlete.com/why-we...g-on-hrv-apps/

    "UPDATE—May 28, 2019: Eric Carter, a member of the US National Skimo Team and a PhD candidate in physiology, recently sent us this study on HRV. Over five years, the study used 57 national-level Nordic skiers and compared their training loads with HRV readings. Their conclusion? “[We saw] no causal relationship between training load/intensity and HRV fatigue patterns.”"
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Whoop & Oura measure and base recommendations on Heart Rate Variability, which is promising but currently of minimal or zero use for athletes. The measurements are way too dependent on variables which can't be controlled. HRV measurements are not even remotely repeatable IME, with values changing by 50+% from one minute to the next.

    Many who use such devices swear by them, but the more experienced athletes I've known who are NOT sponsored by them (including myself) find that the recommendations are often way off. They will tell you to train hard when you're obviously tired more than your own self analysis would.

    If you need to, spend the money on a training plan and follow it. Listen to your body, eat right, and don't rely on technology to show the way.

    https://www.uphillathlete.com/why-we...g-on-hrv-apps/

    "UPDATE—May 28, 2019: Eric Carter, a member of the US National Skimo Team and a PhD candidate in physiology, recently sent us this study on HRV. Over five years, the study used 57 national-level Nordic skiers and compared their training loads with HRV readings. Their conclusion? “[We saw] no causal relationship between training load/intensity and HRV fatigue patterns.”"
    Agreed, and even if you think that HRV tells you something, you still don't know what it tells you cause so many other things might be making noise.

    I'll slightly disagree with something you said above, though I don't really think you meant it how it sounded. I think technology is hugely valuable, but you just can't rely on it as a sole measure. (and I think that's actually what you meant as well.)

  20. #145
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    I'm riding a 50k 3700 vert race (Bailey Hundito) with my 15 year old and some of her friends in June. Its her first race and I want to create a flexible training plan that's fun and that she'll stick with. The goal is to build up fitness/endurance and to finish the race and feel good about it (not place). She's done some 20 mile/2000 vert rides but nothing this big. In the past I have done something like this that was pretty effective in building endurance:

    1. Build a base
    2. Start ramping up distance over 2-3 week period with some intervals thrown in.
    3. Ramp down with shorter rides for a week/Recovery.
    4. Ramp back up with increased intervals over 2-3 weeks
    5. Repeat and ramp down before the race.

    I've intrigued by your 3 week cycle. Its definitely simple and easy to manage.
    1. High intensity
    2. High volume
    3. Recovery

    What do you recommend? If doing a 3 week cycle, do you take days off between rides? And how easy of a recovery ride? We're in Golden, so easy is probably spinning on pavement. Really appreciate all the info in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post

    With the 3 week cycle I can:
    1. Crush an intensity week (8-10 hours = lower volume = more time with family),
    2. Hang on for a volume week (12-16 hours = less family time)
    3. Recover (6-9 hours = more time with family)

    Some people can train more than this, some can train less. With my wife training 7-10 hours per week, this is what works for us.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by EWG View Post
    Agreed, and even if you think that HRV tells you something, you still don't know what it tells you cause so many other things might be making noise.

    I'll slightly disagree with something you said above, though I don't really think you meant it how it sounded. I think technology is hugely valuable, but you just can't rely on it as a sole measure. (and I think that's actually what you meant as well.)
    You're correct: I didn't mean to suggest that one should totally eschew technology. Heart rate and power are extremely useful metrics that I seldom ride without. Resting HR can be useful for gauging recovery as well, but with enough experience I think people can do just as well by carefully listening to the body.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Any thoughts on the Whoop strap or Oura ring? Both stupid gadgetry that tells you things you already know if you're honest and pay attention to your body? I have some serious fitness to rebuild after basically taking a year off. Whoop seems preferable since I'd most likely use it for 6 months then drop it.

    I used a whoop for ~ 2 years. My wife still uses hers.
    It works well, for the most part. Races and Big Workouts would definitely trigger reduced recovery. It typically responded as expected.

    However, there were times where it was hard for me to discern recovery: such as 1-2 weeks of moderately taxing workouts. In these instances there were enough anomalies that I wasn't sure I could trust the recovery value. One day would be great, the next not so much, then it would be great again. I chalked these random dips to some interference or missed readings, but they happened enough that I lost a bit of faith when I was hoping for the device to provide some insight.

    Because my wife is a perceptual idiot (yes, she's aware and yes, I do use this term), there is value in us continuing to use the Whoop with her. I keep an eye on it most days of the week and it augments our conversations about how she's feeling.

    Personally, I use my Polar Vantage V on an almost nightly basis. The user interface isn't nearly as nice, the watch is terribly uncomfortable to wear at night (I rarely noticed the whoop). However, the Polar is more steady in it's readings and gives fewer anomalous values.

    Edit to Add:
    I would NOT use Whoop or any other recommendations as a means to determine when to do workouts. In other words, I wouldn't only do workouts when Whoop tells me I'm ready.

    I use tools like this as long term monitoring tools to better understand the Central Nervous System state as it responds to the training plan.

  23. #148
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    My wife did the 50 mile version (old course) two years ago. She didn’t train enough but had a great time and did well.

    A few things that are less intuitive for new people doing longer distances:
    * Practice eating and hydrating. Talk through tangibles meaning - “at the top of Nice Kitty eat something for the love of God” then maybe practice eating while riding. 50k isn’t crazy but that can sneak up on a younger rider.
    * Go test ride the course a couple of times. Especially focusing on the bigger climbs and letting her get the sense of pacing.

    Good Luck! Super fun course!

    Quote Originally Posted by slcdawg View Post
    I'm riding a 50k 3700 vert race (Bailey Hundito) with my 15 year old and some of her friends in June. Its her first race and I want to create a flexible training plan that's fun and that she'll stick with. The goal is to build up fitness/endurance and to finish the race and feel good about it (not place). She's done some 20 mile/2000 vert rides but nothing this big. In the past I have done something like this that was pretty effective in building endurance:

    1. Build a base
    2. Start ramping up distance over 2-3 week period with some intervals thrown in.
    3. Ramp down with shorter rides for a week/Recovery.
    4. Ramp back up with increased intervals over 2-3 weeks
    5. Repeat and ramp down before the race.

    I've intrigued by your 3 week cycle. Its definitely simple and easy to manage.
    1. High intensity
    2. High volume
    3. Recovery

    What do you recommend? If doing a 3 week cycle, do you take days off between rides? And how easy of a recovery ride? We're in Golden, so easy is probably spinning on pavement. Really appreciate all the info in this thread.

  24. #149
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    Thank you, good input! I think she does a good job hydrating, but may need reminders to eat. This is a really fun event and I had mixed feelings about moving from 50mile to 50k, but it'll be really cool to ride with her (50 miles would prob be too much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    My wife did the 50 mile version (old course) two years ago. She didn’t train enough but had a great time and did well.

    A few things that are less intuitive for new people doing longer distances:
    * Practice eating and hydrating. Talk through tangibles meaning - “at the top of Nice Kitty eat something for the love of God” then maybe practice eating while riding. 50k isn’t crazy but that can sneak up on a younger rider.
    * Go test ride the course a couple of times. Especially focusing on the bigger climbs and letting her get the sense of pacing.

    Good Luck! Super fun course!

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by slcdawg View Post
    Its her first race and I want to create a flexible training plan that's fun and that she'll stick with.
    I spent years working with the BJC program and I cannot emphasis this aspect enough. Even with our juniors whom are racing at a national level, most of the training is games, relay races, skills, etc. This is especially important for riders less than 16 years old.

    When a rider reaches 16 or so (a little different for each) then I believe you can begin adding some more traditional volume.

    Because of this, I would not recommend doing the block periodization with the Intensity Week, Volume Week, Recovery week as I described.

    However, I do believe you can do a 2 week on; 1 week off scheme where you hold volume moderate and vary intensity.

    For Example:
    Week 1:
    8 hours riding total.
    -1 long ride of 2-3 hours
    -2 workouts of an hour (one more skills focused, one more hard riding focused)
    - 2 easy rides of about an hour

    Week 2
    Total Riding ~8 hours
    -1 long ride of 2-3 hours
    -2 workouts of an hour (Both hard-riding focused)
    - 2 Base rides of about an hour

    Week 3:
    Total Riding: 5 hours
    -3 Base Rides of about 1 hour
    -2 skills days that are challenging, fun, but not taxing.

    For skills:
    We do all sorts of fun, silly things in addition to the traditional like wheelies and techy climbs.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVO...MYQjyww/videos

    If your daughter and her friends are enjoying cycling, I'll plug the local junior teams.
    https://www.gbxjrs.com/
    www.boulderjuniorcycling.org

    It's incredible to see kids thrive when they're with their peers!

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